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TRANSLATION OF QURAN
BY DR. QAMAR ZAMAN
Translation Status
آیات
سورۃ
نمبر
1-7 الفَاتِحَة -1
1-286 البَقَرَة -2
1-200 آل عِمرَان -3
1-176 النِّسَاء -4
1-120 المَائدة -5
1-165 الاٴنعَام -6
1-206 الاٴعرَاف -7
1-75 الاٴنفَال -8
1-129 التّوبَة -9
1-109 یُونس -10
1-123 هُود -11
1-111 یُوسُف -12
1-43 الرّعد -13
1-52 إبراهیم -14
1-99 الحِجر -15
1-128 النّحل -16
1-111 بنیٓ اسرآئیل / الإسرَاء -17
1-110 الکهف -18
1-98 مَریَم -19
1-135 طٰه -20
1-112 الاٴنبیَاء -21
1-78 الحَجّ -22
1-118 المؤمنون -23
1-64 النُّور -24
1-77 الفُرقان -25
1-227 الشُّعَرَاء -26
1-93 النَّمل -27
1-88 القَصَص -28
1-69 العَنکبوت -29
1-60 الرُّوم -30
1-34 لقمَان -31
1-30 السَّجدَة -32
1-73 الاٴحزَاب -33
1-54 سَبَإ -34
1-45 فَاطِر -35
1-83 یسٓ -36
1-182 الصَّافات -37
1-88 صٓ -38
1-75 الزُّمَر -39
1-85 المؤمن / غَافر -40
1-54 حٰمٓ السجدة / فُصّلَت -41
1-54 القَمَر -54
Read Now


»«
QURAN
TERMINOLOGIES
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salaam Dr.Sahib,  
 
1) Could you please explain riba and usury and 2) is it ok to take the interest from bank (which it is giving without our demand) also, is it ok to pay interest on borrowed money from banks (this the bank is demanding). Thank you.
Add Your Comments  Question by: SHIREEN On 05 June 2010
Comments by: Dr. Qamar Zaman On 12 June 2010
Mohtarma Shireen Sahiba, may God bless you ,  
Although I was planning to write an article on Riba but could not find time to write but your question forced me to write about it. Very frankly let me accept my weakness in writing something particularly in English. It is the job of Mr Aurangzeb and Mr Zubair to write in English. However I will try . Please my mistakes.  
 
The verses quoted about Riba are 275-269 of Sura 2 (Al-Baqra),  
الَّذِينَ يَأْكُلُونَ الرِّبَا لا يَقُومُونَ إِلا كَمَا يَقُومُ الَّذِي يَتَخَبَّطُهُ الشَّيْطَانُ مِنَ الْمَسِّ ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا الْبَيْعُ مِثْلُ الرِّبَا وَأَحَلَّ اللَّهُ الْبَيْعَ وَحَرَّمَ الرِّبَا فَمَنْ جَاءَهُ مَوْعِظَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ فَانْتَهَى فَلَهُ مَا سَلَفَ وَأَمْرُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَمَنْ عَادَ فَأُولَئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ  
يَمْحَقُ اللَّهُ الرِّبَا وَيُرْبِي الصَّدَقَاتِ وَاللَّهُ لا يُحِبُّ كُلَّ كَفَّارٍ أَثِيمٍ  
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ  
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَذَرُوا مَا بَقِيَ مِنَ الرِّبَا إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ  
فَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلُوا فَأْذَنُوا بِحَرْبٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَإِنْ تُبْتُمْ فَلَكُمْ رُءُوسُ أَمْوَالِكُمْ لا تَظْلِمُونَ وَلا تُظْلَمُونَ  
وَإِنْ كَانَ ذُو عُسْرَةٍ فَنَظِرَةٌ إِلَى مَيْسَرَةٍ وَأَنْ تَصَدَّقُوا خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ  
وَاتَّقُوا يَوْمًا تُرْجَعُونَ فِيهِ إِلَى اللَّهِ ثُمَّ تُوَفَّى كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَا كَسَبَتْ وَهُمْ لا يُظْلَمُونَ  
275. those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading Him to insanity. that is because they say: "Trading is Only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury). so Whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Ribâ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allâh (to judge); but whoever returns [to Ribâ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.  
276. Allâh will destroy Ribâ (usury) and will give increase for Sadaqât (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) and Allâh likes not the disbelievers, sinners.  
277. truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, they will have their reward with their Lord. on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  
278. O You who believe! be afraid of Allâh and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribâ (usury) (from now onward), if You are (really) believers.  
279. and if You do not do it, Then take a notice of war from Allâh and his Messenger but if You repent, You shall have Your capital sums. deal not unjustly (by asking more than Your capital sums), and You shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than Your capital sums).  
280. and if the debtor is In a hard time (has no money), Then grant Him time till it is easy for Him to repay, but if You remit it by Way of charity, that is better for You if You did but know.  
281. and be afraid of the Day when You shall be brought back to Allâh. Then Every person shall be paid what He earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.  
(Usual translation )  
 
Now keep in mind the verse underlined, which says that if you don’t stop taking profit or usury called RIBA then there is a declaration of War from Allah and his Messenger .  
 
Do you think Allah and his prophet is going to launch a war against the people who are taking or giving some extra money on loans.  
 
Certainly NOT.  
 
Declaration of War is always agaist some mutiny or tyranny. But before we start understanding from our point of view lets see the weaknesses of orthodox explanation of Riba and its application .  
 
By orthodox definition Riba (usury ) is,  
1….If someone takes some money for some period and he is asked to pay extra money on and above the loan then he is giving Riba.  
2….If someone gives money to some person and does not participate in business actively i.e. he is a sleeping partner then he is taking Riba.  
 
Lets put these rules in practice,  
 
A person is fired from the job due to Economic turmoil and he is given some allowances in shape of money. He has no choice to invest his savings in any business because he can not become a sleeping partner in any business nor he can start his own business because of small amount money and lack of experience of business. Moreover during the Economic turmoil when experienced businessman are shutting down their business how an inexperienced person can start a new business.  
 
Ultimately he has no choice except to keep the money hidden in his home under the earth ( like Arabian gypsies of 1400 years ago ) at the mercy of dacoits and thieves.  
 
Not only he is at the mercy of dacoits but also facing the risk of inflation . (Actually the problem is our own self created by asking our Mullah to give decree on problems of economics about which he knows nothing )  
 
Now coming to our discussion from Quran, we have seen in verse 279  
 
That if someone is involved in usury he should be prepared for a war from Allah and Messenger .  
 
As we know a declaration of war is not an ordinary thing. It is only declared either for the enemy from outside the state or against the rebellions or to suppress a mutiny or a revolt .  
 
So it should be very clear that RIBA is something going on against the state on a very large scale, and as the context suggests the matter was financial so the war was declared against those who were looting the resources of the state. In our days this is to be applied on all those who are plundering the wealth of the state.  
 
Now after defining Riba as looting, grabbing and the wealth and resources of the state let us see the translation of the verses 275-281 of Sura 2 (Al-Baqra)  
 
275. Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading Him to insanity. that is because they say: "Trading is Only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury). so Whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Ribâ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allâh (to judge); but whoever returns [to Ribâ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.  
 
275. Those who loot the resources and wealth of the state don’t take a stand except like a person who has become insane by the teachings of Satan ,this is because they say Contracts ( البیع ) or commitments are like Riba . Allah has allowed contracts and forbidden looting of states wealth and resources .  
 
276. Allah destroys Riba and flourishes Sadaqats and Allâh does not like those who does not obey and the criminals.  
 
Please note that Riba is brought agaist the system of Sadaqat . Now if Sadaqa is a system of public contribution to state, as we see from verse 103 of sura 9 and verse 60 of sura 9  
خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِمْ بِهَا  
103. take Sadaqah from their wealth In order to purify them and sanctify them with it.  
and verse 60 of sura 9  
إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِينَ وَفِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَاِبْنِ السَّبِيلِ  
60. As-Sadaqât are Only for the لِلْفُقَرَاءِ ( who can not afford themselves and totally dependent on the state ) and Al-Masâkinالْمَسَاكِينِ (the needy ) and وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا those employed to collect (the funds); and for الْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ ِ the heart broken and وَفِي الرِّقَابِ those who are entangled in some problem, وَالْغَارِمِينَ for those who are penalized and for Allâh's Cause, and for those who are involved in Allahs cause ..  
From these two verses you can see that Sadaqa is not what Mulla says. It is the contribution of the public taken by the Nabi himself i.e. the state ( 9-103 ) and was distributed to the deserving people ( 9-60 )
 
 
Coming back to the translation of verse 176 of sura 2 , Allah likes to establish system of Sadaqat and  
 
277. Undoubtedly those who live peacefully and do deeds for the prosperity , opulence and excellence of the society and establish the system according to divine commands and participate in the uplift of the Society will have their rewards ready from their benevolent sustainer , Neither they have any fear nor they will be grieved .  
 
278. O You who live in piece ! be harmonious with the divine commands and give up what remains from Ribâ (usury) if You are really peaceful people.  
 
279. and if You do not do it, Then declare a war from Allâh and his Messenger but if You vow not to repeat You shall have your capital sums. Neither you deal unjustly nor you are dealt with unjustly.  
 
280. and if the person is in a hard time Then grant him time till he is easy , but if you pardon him by way of charity, it is better for you if you knew .  
 
281. and be afraid of the Day when You shall be brought back to Divine Justice .. Then Every person shall be paid what He earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.  
 
Now it is very easy to know about Riba , Riba is basically grabbing of state’s resources and wealth The present banking system if it is beneficial to humanity then it is in accordance to Islamic principles .

Comments by: shireen On 12 June 2010Report Abuse
Salaam Dr. Sahib, beautiful explanation as usual. I understand your point that if the current banking sytem is beneficial to humanity then it is according to islamic principles. But I find the current banking system not to be always beneficial to humanity for the following reasons.  
1) The bank when giving interest gives 2-5% interest for either every 3 or 6 months or even a year, but when it lends us a loan it charges interest every month and usually it is very high.  
2) the bank circulates our money and makes profit and gives us a minute amount of it as interest. Lets say if the bank gives my money to a poor farmer on loan who wants to cultivate his land, and charges him excess interest (which I feel is riba) and in turn is giving me part of that earned interest, then I feel guilty that I am indirectly eating the poor farmers hard earned money (and riba). That is why I feel the interest system from banks is not beneficial for humanity as it is a boon to the rich and a curse to the poor. My friend argues that the bank charges interest only to give the salary to the employees and run the bank. But according to 2:278 bank is eating Riba (usury) as it will beat us to death if we don’t pay back the interest along with the loan.  
3) When we deposit money (huge amounts) there need not be a mortgage between us and the bank but when we borrow a loan, we have to mortgage some thing or the other. This again is an inhuman act. The person in already in dire need of money and the bank is asking to mortgage him his assets.  
 
Grabbing of states resources is done only by those powerful in their seats and on the other hand the banks loot people on a wholesale basis.  
 
Thank you  

Comments by: Dr. Qamar Zaman On 12 June 2010
Mohtarma Shireen sahiba,  
You are right the principals of the present banking system are not correct and they are exploiting the poor and needy. So whatever is the system whether banking or any other system which helps poors and needy with minimum profit or percentage so as not to stress the needy persons is ok. Quran gives you the principals " Neither you deal unjustly nor you are dealt with unjustly". it is the application of this rule which decides wether the application is wright or wrong.  

Comments by: shireen On 12 June 2010Report Abuse
Salaam Dr. Sahib,  
 
Thank you once again for your kind reply. i got your point on riba. thanks again.  
 

Comments by: alam1162@gmail.com On 15 June 2010Report Abuse
Jnb.Dr.Qamar sb/ Aurangzaib sb. SA Sir can you translate it in urdu.

Comments by: moazzam On 16 June 2010
Sister Shireen sahiba! Regards,as Dr. Qamar enlighten us very clearly and comprehensively at current topic. In my opinion the present banking system would be the great blessing of Almighty Allah if the society observes the quranic verse 2/279.Although the present banking system has some short comings which could be improved as per social moral values increments in societies.Mostly in west and few in east has started the quranic resumbling banking.  
 
 

Comments by: Adnan Muhammad Khan On 19 June 2010
Mr. Moazzam, could you give me your cell # ?.  
adnan.zai@hotmail.com  

Comments by: Abdun On 18 December 2010Report Abuse
Salaam,  
 
Riba should be easily understood, but this understanding becomes impossible if you fail to grasp ownership as the two concepts are inextricably intertwined:  
Riba means: the theft of the fruit of someones labour  
A state stands against the concepts of the Qur'an which demands a system with no sovereign, this is clearly expressed repeatedly, as not even Muhammad could be your sovereign, if indeed he still lived, Allah is the only sovereign. A state is an imposition upon a living human being, it dictates upon them and steal the fruits of their labour, a bank likewise steals the fruits of the labour of the human being, banks stand in opposition to the Islamic model which is a repository system.  
 
Allah is the owner of the earth and all within it, yet humanity buy and sell the property of Allah as if it were theirs, hording the wealth of Allah, Alodial ownership is the Islamic system.  
 
All these models are explained on my website.

Comments by: Saeed On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
dear Abdun  
 
Whats the address of your website

Comments by: Mubashir Syed On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Dear Saeed, please find below link to brother Abdun's website.  
 
http://www.servantofthelight.com/  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.

Comments by: Abdun On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam,  
I noticed I wrote Muhammad could be your sovereign, I made a typing error sorry, I meant Muhammad could NOT be your sovereign, sorry.  
 
I must have being having a bad day when I typed this comment, I also wrote allodial ownership, which is an oxymoron I meant Allodial rights of use, sorry

Comments by: Abdun On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam,  
 
people fail to grasp the modern banking system fraud, and further fail to grasp why the banking system is destroying itself, it seems a puzzle as the banks have people lining up to take part in their fraud but still they cannot maintain the system.  
 
I will explain how the fraud functions in a simple way.  
 
Every currency, the pound, dollar, euro, yen ect. is a certificate of a debt, for it to exist a government, corporation, business or individual has to have borrowed it.  
 
This means every note is interest bearing, so over time every note has to be returned to the bank to repay the principle certificate borrowed, but further other loaned certificates have to be paid to the banking fraud to pay the interest.  
 
This is the problem. To maintain the fraud the banksters have to lend out on average twice the volume of debt certificates every ten years to allow the interest payments.  
 
This has the effect of halving the value of the currency, so reducing the true value of savings, it forces the governments to double the amount of tax revenue it needs to meet repayments of national loan certificates, and so it generates inflation.  
 
The banks can also use the power of debt to create a boom or a bust simply by increasing or decreasing the availability of loans, this means they can decrease loans to the people and like musical chairs the businesses will begin to fail as the availability of loan certificates forces them to go bankrupt, and so the banksters gain all the assets for free, and from that they can form corporate business monopolies, even targeting business that compete with them.  
 
They can use the loans to increase or decease the value of property, so forcing house prices to spiral ever upward, then they can restrict loans on homes and watch as the house prices crash, so holding the people in a home they cannot sell, for if they did they would owe the banksters huge sums of debt certificates and have no home.  
 
Now the problem for the bankster, you can only double something so many times before it becomes impossible to generate the volume required, if you look at the modern world it is clear they have reached that point, they cannot generate the debt upon the people of the earth required to service the interest on the previous loans.  
 
The best way to generate debt is war, it is very expensive, and the best enemy in war for a bankster is one you control or create, so they invented the war on terror, using false flag acts of war they organised a global war that is endless and very very costly.  
 
To maintain the banksters fraud both the further frauds of state and democracy are integral, all of these frauds stand in direct opposition to the Islamic models.

Comments by: Abdun On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam,  
 
one other thought, people think the bank use the savings of the people to loan to the debtors, this is against legislation, it is illegal to loan real money that is the property of another, this means all loans are created from nothing, in fact how it works is that anything a sentient living human being signs becomes currency.  
 
This is because the ONLY thing in existence that can generate wealth is human labour, without human labour nothing would advance, this means we are in fact pledging surety to a contract with our labour.  
 
So why do you need a bank?  
 
Good question, the bank uses your ability to create currency and take your labour to pay back what you yourself brought into use, on top of that they demand interest upon something they did not provide and that cost them nothing.  
 
The reason people accept these frauds is because they cannot grasp the systems that are in use.  
 
The reason they fail to do that is because of the dajjal, a blanket of lies that covers the world, created through the media, education systems and political sophistry.  
 
If we look back into history it can be observed how the fraud has evolved, the pound for example was so named because 240 silver coins weighed exactly 1 lb in weight, and also was the reason that until 1971 the english pound has 240 pennies to the pound. If you go to the time of William the Bastard around 1066, one pound in weight of silver was exactly the same as one pound of account, now in the modern fraud see the value of one pound of silver and the debt certificate pound value.

Comments by: Junaid On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Dear Abdun, I have gone through almost all the information available at your website. You have written some good articles regarding Economics, Banking and the concept of AL-RIBA. I must say that your writings are quite impressive and you have pointed out a lot of things which a normal person is unaware of. However, I would like to mention that you have missed some very basic aspects and your articles seems to be following a single point agenda or i would say your articles are showing only one side of the coin. What I mean to say is that you have presented a specific point of view that our economic, banking and monetary system is a complete failure.  
 
Yes it's true that the world has left the economics of Adam Smith and shifted it's focus towards the economics of Keynes and Milton. If we are not following the SOP, does this means that the SOP is incorrect? OR should we re-consider our practices?  
 
Perhaps you have focused mainly on US and UK based economic and banking systems (that too is a bit incomplete) and you have ignored a vary common factor in our banking and monetary system which is called "Managed float regime". This is a system being followed by majority of third world countries including India and Pakistan. You have missed an important aspect of Government and Central bank's role in regulating monetary policies, for example Treasury Bills or Treasury bonds etc.. Nothing has been mentioned in your articles about discounting and open market operations. An important aspect of monetary operations is issuance of bonds and selling these into open market using discount rates.  
 
You are insisting on discontinuing the current economic practices but you missed a very important point where lack of interest will lead the economy towards "Stagflation". You have mentioned nothing regarding how would you protect an economy against this stagflation? Do you really think this game is so simple?  
 
Also to mention that countries like China are operating under a different scenario, where Government is controlling issuance of money. There is another entirely different practice being followed in Middle East, mainly the rich Arab autocracies. In fact you have not mentioned anything in this regard, and this means that the information available on your website is incomplete.  
 
You have mentioned on your website that use of paper money needs to be discontinued and we should revert back to the gold and silver coinage system. I need to know why you missed or ignored important aspect of paper money, that it has been created to facilitate our economic activities? Your entire focus is on proving paper money as a useless item, while you ignored it's benefits, such as abundance in terms of volume, easy handling, safety and security. You think we can pay for an aircraft, a ship, a sky scrapper or any other item having a price of multi-million Dollars, using gold or silver coins? I guess you'll need a truck to carry that much amount of gold or silver.  
 
Please try and understand that we cannot implement a system based on hypothesis or exaggeration. Rather we need practically applicable theories based on genuine research.  
 
Dear brother, I would request you to kindly provide one genuine reason why you think this system is a total failure.  
 
Also please answer the following questions which I are very important if you think people should accept your point of view;  
 
Are you a qualified expert in the field of Banking and economics?  
What is your qualification, your credibility or lets say your field of expertise?  
Have you been a part of Banking Industry?  
Do you have any practical experience in this particular field?  
On what basis are you passing your judgement?  
Why do you think people should accept your point of view?  
Do you have a practically applicable alternate economic design?  
(Note: The economic design available on your website seems inapplicable since it requires a complete 180 degree turn or a total change of system which is not possible by any means. You cannot create a new world!)  
 
I hope you wont mind these straight questions I have asked :)

Comments by: Abdun On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Junaid,  
I do not suggest we revert back to silver and gold coins, I suggest we revert back to human energy economics, were labour is valued not inactive accumulated wealth, now used to monopolise labour, in effect stealing the labour from those investing it.  
 
What I suggest is a natural law system becoming widely understood and implemented, which prevents the usury systems, which are now many and varied, as you point out in the post above. If people begin to understand the frauds they may better understand the correct models we must establish.  
 
I do not leave anything out, but the usury frauds are very widespread in the modern usury system that has enslaved the peoples of the earth to the accumulated wealth masters, and I wish to present the basic concepts, not list every example of those concepts.  
 
A true detriment to understand economics would be a conventional qualification in such a sophist based pseudoscience, economics as a degree trains the mind to find justifications, rationales and excuses for the theft of the fruits of the labour of those who truly generate the wealth, to protect and even expand the ability of the parasites to exploit and extort from the population.  
 
Why would you think experience committing the crime of usury upon those around me would make me some how qualified to understand it to a greater degree?  
 
We, everyone of us, have experience of the usury frauds, to greater and lesser degrees.  
 
I may not have explained a complete detailed alternative system that presents every intricacy, but this is not a difficult task, all it requires is a local community to join together and establish a repository system, contract to each other in common unity to natural law, establish a moot court system, establish a surety bond between themselves and the basic structure is in place.  
 
You need no silver or gold coins, you can use a paper certificate system without any problem, but not one that is outside the local repository, a certificate of labour, is not created from nothing as are the certificates of debt; each one is brought into existence through the signature of the man/woman who stands its worth, if supported by their surety group, who stand surety for them.  
 
This means the repository can issue a certificate upon the future labour of the person wish to have it advanced, this gives an ability for the community to account for and exchange labour in equity.  
 
As a store of labour coins can be used, but are not essential, they do afford the ability to exchange labour universally, as the stored labour in silver and gold can be exchange anywhere without disagreement, so outside of the local communities repository system coins are useful.  
 
I suggest on my website that the paper debt certificates of the usury system should be exchanged for silver which  
has intrinsic value, this withdrawal from usury is a personal choice Junaid, if you feel the benefits for the wealthy are to your advantage, remain within their system, unfortunately the usury system is on a fast downward spiral.

Comments by: Junaid2 On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Brother Abdun, I completely understand your point regarding human labor, however I still insist that you cannot deny the importance of capital. It is the basic element in current economic system which provide opportunities for investment of labor in terms of production of goods and services. Do you think, removing this factor will be beneficial for humanity? If yes then how?  
Also please provide an alternate of capital if you think it is not needed. How will you replace the total amount of money available in the economy with equal amount of metals?  
 
You need to understand that silver. gold or any other metal carry a limitation in terms of abundance. What I mean to say is that the value or amount of metal available on earth (including future mining) is unable to match the combined GDP of the world. How would you handle this situation? In fact you have mentioned nothing on your website regarding the ratio of money supply (M0/M1/M2) in comparison with the GDP. There is a lot more complex mechanism which needs to be dealt with in order to implement an alternate system, and that aspect is the price mechanism. How would you handle that without involving money?  
Also to mention that there is an important aspect of economics known as "International economics" which deals primarily in International trade, for example activity of international differences in productive resources and consumer preferences  
 
Dear brother, you cannot completely deny the importance of qualification or practical experience due to the fact that you need a theoretical as well as practical understanding of the system in order to point out the flaws and deficiencies. You can always criticize a system in general but you cannot debate with the critics who are experts in their respective fields, unless you are equipped yourself with the same weapons they carry.  
 
I hope you understand what I mean :)

Comments by: Abdun On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Junaid,  
 
your questions are answered in my last post, you give me the impression you did not read the last reply, or you have an agenda against an alternative to usury, and wish to propagate confusion?  
 
You talk of international trade, in context of corporation, you fail to grasp the alternative to the crime of corporation, which stands against natural law. Corporation is raping the earth, polluting, exploiting and murdering vast numbers of human beings, it functions like a clinical psychopath within society, you think that corporation need protection from Islamic models?  
 
Nothing is beyond local in reality, what you talk of are the boundaries, restrictions of states, we are a single people, the restrictions are imposed, regulation pretects monoploies, taxation services debt, what I propose is natural law, allodial rights of use, polycentric community and human energy economics, all four of these concepts can be established without reguard for the existing frauds, and they can be protected within the existing frauds because they are inalienable and exist hidden by the frauds, but one fact removes all frauds, and these four models are facts.

Comments by: Junaid On 25 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Dear Abdun, I suppose you don't have any answer to my questions or you missed my point completely. Probably that is why you are getting annoyed :)  
I would request you to please read my questions once again. Actually I have no agenda as such and I do not wish to propagate confusion. Rather my aim is to negate any concept based on assumption or hypothesis. Just to mention that if Mr. Tom, Dick or Harry comes in and says this is the alternate economic plan which needs to be followed. Tell me what criteria would you use to judge it's validity?  
 
In fact my aim is to identify the fact that we can create an alternate economic and monetary system without getting into bigger complexities, and I can tell you that this is not that difficult if you have sufficient theoretical as well as knowledge of the current economic system.  
 
Now let me point out the flaw in your hypothesis (as per my understanding);  
 
**(I suggest on my website that the paper debt certificates of the usury system should be exchanged for silver which has intrinsic value) by Abdun  
 
My friend, please try and see the ground realities. Go to an authentic website and see the total amount of Gold or Silver available on earth and check the combined value. As a matter of fact, you cannot replace the paper money with Gold or silver since it is much less than the volume of economy and combined GDP. How would you cover the deficit?  
 
Also to mention that you need to understand the basic factors which leads to "stagflation" which I have pointed out in my previous post. I would suggest you to do some research on stagflation and it's causes.  
 
I think it's easy to suggest but hard to provide logic and justification, but I am trying to justify my stance. Now its up to you whether you take it as an opportunity to learn and improve or you take it as a negative criticism.  
 
Note: In the early stages of learning, I too was against all the aspects of current economic system, however when I did some research using my professional experience and pondered on ground realities, I had to change my stance. Just to let you know that I have been in-touch with a lot of professional bankers and economists and I have taken their feedback regarding the flaws in our current economic system.  
According to what I have learned so far, you cannot isolate yourself from rest of the world and you cannot change the world altogether or by declaring everything as false. Rather you need to move along adapting positive aspects and slowly removing the negative elements from the current system.  
Hope you understand!

Comments by: Junaid2 On 26 May 2011Report Abuse
Dear Abdun, In continuation to my previous post, I would like to share few more points which you have skipped while explaining an alternate economic system, It is quite obvious that you have provided a completely negative view of banking and economy, while you have ignored the positive aspects.  
 
Please don't forget that the current banking system, despite having so many flaws and so many negative aspects, does provide a benefits to the economy through its specific role in regulating the unused wealth. To understand this concept, let me give you an example;  
Lets assume that a person is getting paid for his/her Labor (as per your suggestion). Now this individual will not spend all the earnings and will definitely be left with some spare money, even if it's in the form of Silver or Gold. What now? I mean whats the use of that extra gold or silver if it's not being utilized. Here comes the role of bank which collects this surplus wealth from individuals in form of deposits and regulate it in the economy through lending. You see? The surplus wealth is being regulated.  
 
Now think about the situation where people start getting paid for their labor, ending up with surplus wealth in form of Gold and Silver or the certificates (as per your suggestion) and this wealth remains in their possession for an unlimited time, without being used in overall economic activities. Don't you think this will ultimately end up in stagflation? Yes I agree that the procedure of lending which is primarily based on the concept of usury is wrong, but the concept of regulating unused wealth itself is beneficial for the economy. Cant you see this simple logic?  
 
You seem to be against the corporations but you have not pointed out the benefit of joint ventures. If one individual is unable to handle a huge project, several individuals can contribute and manage this particular project. This of course is beneficial to the economy. However, the concept of "limited liability" is the negative element of corporations. Another aspect which needs to be mentioned here is generation of capital through listing in stock market, attracting general public to contribute in exchange of return. This also is a positive aspect in terms of regulation of unused or accumulated wealth, though it is being misused in the current economic system.  
 
Unfortunately you have not mentioned these positive elements, rather you have simply focused on declaring the whole system as inefficient.  
 
No sir!  
You cannot create a completely new world by discarding the current socio-economic system. You will have to change the things gradually and you'll have to do a lot of compromises in the early stages. Please don't forget that there are some positive points which needs to be adapted, if you are looking for improvement.  
 
BTW: If you are willing, we can discuss a better suitable and practically applicable plan.

Comments by: Abdun On 26 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Junaid,  
I did try to answer you but the site refused to let me post 5 replies in one day.  
I realise you think the banksters have a benefit, they do not, what you perceive as a benefit is an illusion, you do not grasp the system I suggest, and seem to refuse to absorb its structure, stating things in reference to it that are incorrect repeatedly, is this due to your failure to read what I have written or an intentional method of sophistry.  
You wish to consent to the usury system, you are more than welcome to do so, I do not, and from my investigations it is possible to remove yourself from it, I do not suggest you attempt to change the system that the parasites have manufactured, I suggest you use the facts to protect yourself and demand the inalienable rights of natural law, allodial rights of use and human energy economics, within a polycentric community, if others wish to do the same, demanding and being protected by the law of the land, using knowledge to establish those rights, I ask the accumulated wealth elite parasites for nothing, I demand what I have a right to, what they think is irrelevant. But if no one else wishes to establish Islam and live within the concepts of the Qur'an, that is as always their personal choice.  
The world is not a thing I have any power to change directly, but I can understand the frauds established to steal the fruits of my labour, restrict my movements around the earth, impose regulation and bureaucracy upon me, and work to free myself from the slave masters who impose them, if I can educate those who also wish to free themselves from economic slavery, I will do my best.  
There is no need for gradual steps to make yourself a free being, we have each man/woman on earth inalienable rights, understanding how to enforce them is the key, it may vary from state to state, as many states function on kangaroo court structures, but here at least it is possible to force the parasites to comply to the law of the land if you follow the correct protocols, and protect yourself with contract.  
The models I suggest have no concept of state, legislation, corporation, sovereignty, democracy, representation, usury, all of which stand against the law of the land, you seem to think I must take account of such fraud, why would I wish to perpetuate fraud?  
Your example is nonsense, the banksters do not utilise the savings of the depositors to service loans, they apply a fractional reserve system to create the debt from the signature of the debtor. It is against legislation for the banksters to loan out the savings of the depositors, so in your usury system the money is not utilised it is the reserve of the fiction or fraud.  
As for the model I suggest, again you have not read or are intentionally misrepresenting what I state, the coins if they are used are simply to allow the daily needs of small spending, the system is based upon certificates of labour, the repository can generate all the credit required by the community simply by the individual, sanctioned by their personal bond members, signing for the certificate from the repository, so over time they repay the labour they have been advanced, no interest, no inflation, no fraud, if the loan is not repaid the surety group who sanctioned the certificate to the defaulter are liable for the repayment.  
The wealth of any community is not in the coins, but in the labour people undertake, the fraud is in thinking the banksters have to give permission to perform a service by giving out debt created from nothing and repaid with physical labour at interest.  
The idea of inflation is a requirement of the banksters to maintain their fraud, in a stable system the value of goods remains constant, the cancer of endless growth is not sustainable and is incredibly damaging to the natural environment, and society in general. Taxation is another requirement of the banksters fraud and without their frauds not required, all the frauds without exception are through consent, why would anyone armed with the facts consent to a fraud?  
The corporation function on the pyramid system, this means you are employed as an inferior man/woman to a superior man/woman or group, this structure of business stands against natural law, as all men/women are equal, the structure of business is shared equity, as I have described in detail on my website, the present structure of boss and subordinate is a very inefficient model.  
 
I think you are under a misconception, about my perspective, I'm not interested in states, as states are legal fictions, standing against natural law. I am only concerned with a polycentric community, each community is independent, I have no interest in global monopolies, national plans, international trade, government, or corporation, I am interested in making people understand all we need is community, and from that we achieve what we really NEED, not the endless consumption of consumerism, endless expansion and economic growth, endless increase upon your accumulated wealth.  
 
I suggest people exchange their fiat paper debt certificates for anything of intrinsic value before it slides further into worthlessness, a good indicator of that slide is silver or gold, which exposes the spiral of buying power to worthlessness. I am not interested in governments exchanging fiat money, only individuals, I do not give a shit about GDP, a fiction of economics, it has no importance to the systems I propose.  
 
The amount of silver in the world is fairly large, gold is not very good as a base for coins, its too large in denomination, but copper, zinc, aluminium anything with intrinsic value is fine as a store for value, it doesn't have to be a coin store, anything with value is good, the intrinsic value you exchange your fiat money can be stored within the repository, the repository could function simply upon a combination of silver coins and paper certificates of labour, the volume of coins would never need to be that enormous, the repository would function upon account, and that repository would be local and unique to that community.

Comments by: Junaid2 On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Dear Abdun, the purpose of this lengthy debate is not to criticize you for the sake of criticism. Rather I am trying to evaluate the concepts presented by you in terms of ground realities. I am trying to evaluate my own concepts too.  
I think we are now getting closer to an agreement because as per my understanding, the Shortest distance between two opposing points of view Is a Punch Line. Please allow me to shorten the distance a bit :)  
 
I would like to mention that I am not at all in favor of current banking system and the banksters. All I am trying to tell you is that the system itself is not that harmful, rather it has been converted into something bad due to the elements of greed and selfishness. As per my understanding, Gold, Silver or any other metal is nothing but a commodity which can be used as medium of exchange. All the value attached to these metals is as artificial as the paper money itself is.  
Think about a rich man carrying huge amount of Gold and Silver in a desert where there is scarcity of water. Now tell me what will this man do when his thirst gets out of control? Obviously he will give away all his Gold and Silver perhaps for few drops of water. Where is the value then?  
 
Same is the case with our banking system which is currently working according to the rules defined by elites. Actually these elites are working on a simple pattern. They are creating fiat money and keeping it scarce as compared to the total production of goods and services. This scarcity is the root cause of usury. Why would you pay interest on money if it's in abundance?  
 
Please read the following statement by Abraham Lincoln and tell me what do you think of it;  
 
The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. – Abraham Lincoln  
(Note: If you don't like the word "Government", please replace it with "community" or "society").  
 
Now I would request you to read the following comments posted on a discussion thread;  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1221#COM6049  
 
I am sure this would give you a brief summary of what I am trying to tell you!  
 
Perhaps you need to elaborate why you think debt free paper money or electronic money cannot be used as a medium of exchange (if it is backed up by metal) and why metal itself?  
 
Talking about corporations, I think I agree with you on the point that corporations are root cause of major aggression and suppression, mankind is facing today. However I must say it again that it's not the entity, rather it's the rules which are causing this trouble. Limited Liability, Copy / patent rights, monopolies etc are the real issues and it's simply the elements of greed and selfishness and not the physical entities which are causing this endless consumption and consumerism. Why would mankind be running after consumerism when there is abundance of goods, equal rights, proper distribution of wealth and everything is accessible?  
 
In fact I am unable to understand your statement that "you don't give a shit about GDP". My friend, GDP is nothing but the overall production and consumption of goods and services in a society or a particular economic unit. (Lets not talk about the country, since you don't believe in that). I am sure you would agree on this point that a community is made up of individuals who are bound through common interests, who follow certain laws, who produce or consume goods and provide services, sharing the land and natural resources within certain physical boundaries.  
Why physical boundaries?  
Because you cannot have everyone on your side and there always will be a difference of opinion or ideology among different people. This means not everyone will agree to the natural laws, therefore those who are following the natural laws will have to define certain physical boundaries and limits where they will carry out their socio-economic activities at will. Also to mention that this group or community needs diversity of professions as well as variety of resources if it is to survive. On the other hand, those who are not interested in following natural laws will have to define their boundaries in order to carry out their activities of life according to their customs and beliefs.  
 
In case you agree with this concept of production and consumption in terms of goods and services, then you cannot ignore the term "GDP". Also to mention that the debt free paper or electronic money if it is used as a medium of exchange to facilitate economic activities, will be as good as Gold, Silver or any other metal is. Yes we can always back the local currency with metal for International or inter communal trade which is a necessity, since a community cannot own everything within it's boundaries or region.  
 
Dear friend, I am sure you are not living an isolated life and that you are still a part of this system or a nation which considers a government as sovereign. Tell me if I am wrong and also tell me if you are living outside the boundaries of such sovereign government, not following it's legislation, not paying any taxes etc. Perhaps I would be the first one to appreciate you for that :)  
However, if this is not the case and you are still a part of the same system, then whats the use of talking about an alternate system which you yourself are not following?  
How would this totally a different system will be implemented and where? Who will implement this and when?  
 
Dear Abdun, I must say that if you are not following it yourself, then you should try and think about something which is practically applicable and easily adaptable. Why to talk about living on the moon when we cant reach there?  
Can't we improve things within the existing system?

Comments by: Abdun On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Junaid,  
 
 
you think the modern banking system is not harmful, every war, every person existing in poverty in the modern world is a direct result of the banking system itself, I despair that it is not self evident to all, but people have for generation attempted to reform the system, all I can say is beware the reformers, from bad to worse.  
 
 
 
So you wish to reform what is aberrant, it stands against natural law, why would anyone support a fraud, or wish to reform a fraud, a reformed fraud is still a fraud!  
 
 
 
Again you apply sophist logic to what I express, I have repeatedly stated the system is based upon human labour, things of intrinsic value represent a store of labour to varying degrees, they in themselves are not important, only human energy generates wealth, the banksters want people to think capital generates wealth, but a pile of silver will sit where it is and add nothing, just as a pile of paper debt certificates would, only the desire of the man/woman to exchange their labour for the invested labour within the intrinsic valued object generates wealth, while in the pile of paper debt certificates no intrinsic value exists, simply a perception of value.  
 
 
 
You make sophist arguments of a man in a desert, while you ignore the logic of intrinsic value, the silver has no value, the labour it took to mine, purify, and mint represents an amount of labour, that is the intrinsic value. Your desert man has a better chance of exchanging his silver for water in a foreign land than a foreign paper certificate of a debt. At the present time the prices of commodities are controlled by the usury banksters, they dictate the fiat value they will charge as they monopolies and hoard resources, this is not a natural structure, and would dissolve with the usury system once people abandoned the frauds.  
 
 
 
I have explained the reason for the banking impending failure in earlier posts on this thread, the banksters cannot prevent it, only engineer a new fraud to replace the one that fails, they would like to impose a digital monetary system without any paper or coins at all, this would be far easier to control, and to extort, taxation, corporate payments and interest from the victims.  
 
 
 
You say " Why would you pay interest on money if it's in abundance?" Why would you indeed, and why would you want to, what are you paying interest for? If you can simply get an advance upon your future labours, why would anyone need the accumulated wealth's hoarded or fictional wealth, they would not, and should not.  
 
Abraham Lincoln was a distant blood relative of the english monarchy, the concept of state and government in its modern corporate structure stands against natural law, I need no superior to dictate what I can or cannot do within the confines of natural law, I need no regulation, or bureaucrats, working against natural law and imposing services through the force of arms intimidation, breaking natural law.  
 
 
 
I will restate, you nor anyone else can impose taxation upon another, taxation is an imposition, an encroachment upon a man/woman, it cannot be justified or supported within a natural law society, and never was within one that applied natural law. Natural law is demanded within every court on earth they are required to administer it, but use apply legislative law in its place as we do not declare our inalienable rights and are tricked into consenting to their frauds, but natural law can be demanded.  
 
 
 
Fiat money represents a fiction, just a perception of value, as such it is a fraud, it is not anchored to a bond, it is simply a fantasy fed to people, it generates inflation as it has the same problems as the banksters fiat notes, if a government print more and more money to pay for whatever adventures of war, theft or subjugation that the people ignore upon themselves or their neighbours, or for whatever corruptions the representatives can hide from view, it would steadily increase the volume of fiat paper, reducing slowly its perceived value. If the government demanded interest upon loans it would do the same but faster, requiring all the same tricks to maintain the fraud.  
 
 
 
Only a mans/womans labour based system is none inflationary and stable, as it is based within reality, it has a bond and surety that prevents the dominance of accumulated wealth we suffer today, people have never been exposed to the true systems of society in our present age, and what is unknown is rejected.  
 
 
 
Ponder this "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers." Thomas Pynchon  
 
 
 
As I have repeated above natural law is inalienable, they cannot take it from you, you have to consent to their frauds, just like the idea of the devil requires you to agree before you are bound to the contract, legislation is an agreement of consent, but why consent to a fraud, demand what is lawful and reject all that is legal as the fraud it is.  
 
 
 
If people understand the frauds and understand the real systems we have, we do not need to take small reforms begged from the elite who exist as obscene parasites upon the poor, we may establish a free environment of growth and development, a fertile place that we can live in peace and self advancement. It seems you fear freedom Junaid, then remain a slave, sophistry is an accountable act.

Comments by: Junaid On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Dear Abdun, I don't fear freedom, rather I am looking for practical way to get rid of slavery. What I mean to say is that you have designed a system which requires majority to follow, otherwise it cannot be implemented. How can you expect that majority of people who are completely brainwashed by the hands of media and their preconceived Ideologies, will start following natural laws leaving behind the legislation and socio-economic system designed by elites?  
And when majority says NO to you then what options do you have in terms of implementing a system based on natural laws? You don't have access to free land and free resources. You don't have abundance in terms of necessities of life. On what basis will you say NO to Governments? How will you say NO to Taxation? Where would you migrate and live? And who will go with you?  
 
I know that the current practices are making this system look like a total fraud, but we cannot change the things going to an extreme and opposite end. In fact what you have written on your website, is quite complicated and difficult to be understood by a common man. You have mentioned a lot about corporations and fractional reserve banking on your website, but do you think you can convince people by providing half of the information and skipping half?  
 
I have given you a good suggestion to tell your readers about the biggest fraud being done by Governments, but you just ignored that. Let me remind you again that the biggest fraud our governments are using to deprive people of their hard-work is discounting. The governments make their money through selling treasury bonds / bills in so called open market at discount rate and they enjoy this privilege only because they have the sole authority to TAX the population. How can you expect people to challenge this concept without creating proper awareness?  
 
It's very easy to say that everything is bad and that the system is all fraud, but by saying that you don't believe in all this, you cannot solve the problems, can you? And coming up with a completely alien concepts, you cannot convince people to follow, could you? Who would like to live a completely isolated life and who would like to sacrifice his future and that of his next generation for a cause which is somewhat unclear???  
 
Please excuse these straight forward comments, but you are asking people to follow the tail light of a car which is leading them to a destination completely unknown. By "unknown" I mean that no one has the slightest idea of what these natural laws are and how they can follow them. Also no one knows how to get rid of this current socio-economic system everyone has been following since centuries. Not even you!  
 
And please allow me to remind you that you haven't replied to some of the important questions I have raised in my previous posts. Let me repeat them in a more clear way;  
 
Are you not living under a sovereign government?  
Are you not paying taxes to your government?  
Are you not a consumer?  
Are you not paying the prices of commodities according to the current market?  
Are you not paying VAT and all other taxes for consumer items and utilities?  
Are you not abiding by the legislation of your country?  
Are you not holding a passport, a social security document, a birth certificate and other documents as a citizen?  
 
I can see from your website that you are in construction business. Tell me are you following the concept of human labor as primary means of wealth generation in your business?  
 
If your answer is NO then how can you talk about a system which you yourself is not being able to follow?  
And you are talking about a complete change overnight, and not small reforms???  
 
Where will you establish the free environment you are talking about? I mean which part of earth? And what will you do when no one will join you? Can few people manage all what you are talking about, without having the required necessities for example land and natural resources?

Comments by: Abdun On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Junaid,  
 
 
 
have you actually read what I write, the models can be implemented by one person, I will repeat as you are intentionally expressing the direct opposite of what I express repeatedly, the models of natural law are inalienable and universal, all courts are required to administer natural law to be a court, they apply sophistry and deception to prevent you from its protection, by understanding the system you can demand your inalienable right, it matter not if anyone else does.  
 
 
 
The systems I present can be implemented and are being by a few intrepid souls, what you seek is a usury system that isn't quiet so violent and oppressive, I would wish you well in that endeavour, I wish to live within Islam, within natural law, allodial rights of use, and establish if others wish also to live within Islam polycentric community and human energy economics.  
 
 
 
Allodial rights of use still apply, once you are protected from the frauds of legislation with contract, you can even alone establish allodial rights of use, you do not need the permission of the accumulated wealth elite, they impost through force of arms and hoard the resources through fraud, why is their permission sort by you?  
 
 
 
The fiction of state has NO AUTHORITY to extract taxation from any one, all taxation is taken through consent, if that consent is denied they would have to take you to court to attempt to trick you into consent, if you have established your contracts and refused to consent to legislation, again they require consent from you to act against you, you can rely upon the protection of natural law.  
 
 
 
Are you not living under a sovereign government? I have no sovereign, Allah is the only sovereign, the frauds and fictions of state, government, legislation and corporation do not stand within the law of the land, and can be ignored if due process is followed and natural law is contracted and demand as the inalienable right it is.  
 
 
Are you not paying taxes to your government? I pay no direct taxation, I do at the moment pay indirect for goods and services as those around me inflate their prices with these frauds, and they hold a monopoly.  
 
 
Are you not a consumer? The consumption of what is needed is not a crime and not a privilege awarded by the accumulated wealth elite.  
 
 
Are you not paying the prices of commodities according to the current market? Your sophist logic has no end, if people begin to contract to the Islamic models of society who would buy the goods and services from those who add taxations, banking charges, corporation profits to good, if they had an option to buy goods free of these imposition.  
 
 
Are you not paying VAT and all other taxes for consumer items and utilities? You cannot contract with a corporation, it is against the law of the land, as you can only contract with a man/woman, so any contract with a fiction of state, government or corporation can be ignored and is unenforceable in court.  
 
 
Are you not abiding by the legislation of your country? I do not abide by legislation only natural law.  
 
 
Are you not holding a passport, a social security document, a birth certificate and other documents as a citizen? More sophistry from you, until people grasp it is possible to exist free of the parasites we are in a prison planet, people like yourself who refuse to act and remain in chains enslave all around them to the same encroachments, the more people wake up the more people will remove these encroachments. It is impossible to move from prison to prison without a prison pass at the present time, something that will ultimately result in one of two things, the removal of humanity or the removal of the chains.  
 
 
 
I am a builder, I generate wealth through my physical labour, how do builders generate wealth in your universe?  
 
 
 
Where can this be established? I am talking about any part of the earth, where ever each one of us exists, we must consider do we want to be slaves, do we want to enslave our children to the same or even more repressive slavery, do we wish the earth to be smothered by pollution, war, starvation, exploitation and ignorance, or do we want to live according to Islam, in an environment of growth and freedom. You wish to reform, reform your frauds if you can, I will watch in wonder as you convince the parasites to give back their resources, or reduce the level of theft upon the population, or give the starving a little food, they have never done so in the past and I see no reason why they would alter their perspective. As I also keep saying, but you repeatedly ignore me, I need no one to join me, I can exist to a limited degree as a Muslim, but the more who do see the way forward the freer each would be, as with everything, the total is always greater than the sum of the parts in any organic system.

Comments by: Junaid On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
**(have you actually read what I write, the models can be implemented by one person,) by Abdun  
 
Yes I have read what you wrote. Now please elaborate how the model can be implemented by one person living within the socio-economic system of governments and corporations. It would be great if you use clear and easily understandable explanation.  
 
**(The systems I present can be implemented and are being by a few intrepid souls) by Abdun  
 
Where are those souls? Also please please tell me how?  
 
**(What you seek is a usury system that isn't quiet so violent and oppressive, I would wish you well in that endeavor) by Abdun  
 
Frankly speaking, I am reading what you are writing but perhaps you are not reading my comments, otherwise you wouldn't have said that I seek a usury system. Please read all my previous posts and you'll see that I have openly condemned the concept of usury. Show me where you saw me advocating for usury?  
 
**(I wish to live within Islam, within natural law, allodial rights of use) by Abdun  
 
I wish to be the richest person on Earth or I wish to be Michael Jackson or the World boxing champion, but does that mean I will actually become the richest person, or I will become Michael Jackson or the world boxing champion? No isn't it? Let's talk about reality and not dreams !!!  
No where on earth, are natural laws being followed. No where on earth does anyone enjoys allodial rights. What people follow here are legislation imposed by their Governments and it is these Governments who actually own all the rights. And this is not a sophist logic, rather it's a fact, a reality or you can say a bitter truth!  
 
Now let's see what sophistry is. Let me quote your answers to my questions so that everyone could see who is giving sophist logic;  
 
Are you not living under a sovereign government?  
**(I have no sovereign, Allah is the only sovereign, the frauds and fictions of state, government, legislation and corporation do not stand within the law of the land, and can be ignored if due process is followed and natural law is contracted and demand as the inalienable right it is.) by Abdun  
 
This is not a clear answer. You are living as a citizen in UK but you are not admitting it or denying it openly. What due process are you talking about?  
 
Are you not paying taxes to your government?  
**(I pay no direct taxation, I do at the moment pay indirect for goods and services as those around me inflate their prices with these frauds, and they hold a monopoly. ) by Abdun  
 
This simply means you are paying taxes. On what basis are you denying sovereignty of the government then?  
 
Are you not a consumer?  
**(The consumption of what is needed is not a crime and not a privilege awarded by the accumulated wealth elite. ) by Abdun  
 
My friend, it's you who has been criticizing consumerism and telling everyone that it leads to slavery.  
 
Are you not paying the prices of commodities according to the current market?  
**(Your sophist logic has no end, if people begin to contract to the Islamic models of society who would buy the goods and services from those who add taxations, banking charges, corporation profits to good, if they had an option to buy goods free of these imposition.) by Abdun  
 
No ifs and buts please. This is called hypothesis. It would be much better if you could talk straight and say YES or NO!!!  
 
Are you not paying VAT and all other taxes for consumer items and utilities?  
**(You cannot contract with a corporation, it is against the law of the land, as you can only contract with a man/woman, so any contract with a fiction of state, government or corporation can be ignored and is unenforceable in court.) by Abdun  
 
I think this answer is totally irrelevant and it has got nothing to do with my question. Are you paying taxes or not? (Please read my comments in reply to your answer regarding TAX). You have already admitted that you are paying indirect taxes for goods and services.  
 
Are you not abiding by the legislation of your country?  
**(I do not abide by legislation only natural law.) by Abdun  
 
Dear friend, you have already admitted that you take part in socio-economic activities within the boundries of a sovereign Government. Of course you are living in a country and you own a house. If not then you must be paying rent for the accommodation. In either case, you are bound to pay the dues as demanded by the government or tenant. Also you must be paying Electricity and telephone bills, you are driving a car, following the traffic rules and getting booked for breaking the traffic laws, which means you are abiding by the rules defined by state and corporations. Don't tell me that you are living on an Island or in a cave which is situated deep inside a jungle!  
 
Are you not holding a passport, a social security document, a birth certificate and other documents as a citizen?  
**( It is impossible to move from prison to prison without a prison pass at the present time, something that will ultimately result in one of two things, the removal of humanity or the removal of the chains.) by Abdun  
 
What do you mean by it will ultimately result in two things? I am talking about reality and you are speculating!!!  
You just admitted that it's not possible to move from a place to another without a passport. It means you do hold a passport and all other necessary documents. Where is the freedom you are talking about???  
 
Now let me reply to your following comments;  
**(I am a builder, I generate wealth through my physical labour, how do builders generate wealth in your universe?)  
by Abdun  
 
Let me tell you how it works where I live or where I have seen this happening. The builders usually get construction tasks and they enter into contracts with either individuals, corporate clients or Governments. After signing the agreement or a contract, it is the responsibility of the builder to arrange for material and all the necessary man power to finish the task. This guy gets paid a lump sum amount in the beginning, during or at the end of the task. Now the builder provides material and labor starts working. Every individual works for a specific task assigned to him and in the end, the builder pays the labor at a predetermined mutually agreed rate. Architect, mason, carpenter etc. everyone gets paid for the labor they have invested but the builder himself gets the major share since he was responsible to manage the overall project. Normally this share exceeds everyone else, making this builder the prime beneficiary of the deal. He did nothing, No physical labor as such, except getting into a contract, handling procurement and logistics, supervising labor and finally he gets more than everyone else. And specially if the work has been assigned by the Government, the builder usually earns more than you could imagine. He does it by using low quality material, paying less wages to the labor and he covers everything through bribing government officials. This is how the builders generate wealth.  
 
Where can this be established?  
**(I am talking about any part of the earth, where ever each one of us exists, we must consider do we want to be slaves, do we want to enslave our children to the same or even more repressive slavery, do we wish the earth to be smothered by pollution, war, starvation, exploitation and ignorance, or do we want to live according to Islam, in an environment of growth and freedom.)  
 
Again a vague statement. You are talking about your wishes but there is no solid plan to implement all this practically. Everyone hates war, starvation, exploitation and ignorance but where's the plan to get out of all this?  
Or you think you can do everything by providing a theory, rather a hypothesis???  
 
Oh wait !  
I got you answer;  
**(As I also keep saying, but you repeatedly ignore me, I need no one to join me, I can exist to a limited degree as a Muslim, but the more who do see the way forward the freer each would be,) by Abdun  
 
You mean you are living to a limited degree as Muslim. Would you mind telling me what is that limited degree and who gave you the authority to decide about limits?  
Remember; there is no partial submission in Islam. It's either complete or none!!!  
Do you really think you can get rid of all the aggression, suppression and subjugation by dreaming for a better world???  
No you can't !  
In fact you need to step forward, come up with a solid and convincing plan, set yourself as an example for others and motivate them to follow. This is the practical way of implementation,  
A partial Muslim, or a part time Moses cannot defeat the Pharaohs of today's world.  
 
Note: My apologies in advance, if you think my comments are harsh!

Comments by: Abdun On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Junaid,  
 
you do not read what I write and are now resorting to sarcasm, you wish to reform the present usury systems, that is why I believe you wish to support the usury system, I think I am wasting my time and energy debating the same things, you do not accept the answers I give, and that is your choice, but for me to continue to repeat myself to deaf ears seems a pointless act.  
 
I wish you well in your reforms of the usury systems, and in getting the accumulated wealth elite to be transformed into altruistic Muslim souls, if as you believe no one is interested in Islam in the modern age as I suggest it should exist, then Islam will remain lost. As for myself I will do what I'm able to live within the models of Islam, what more can anyone do.

Comments by: Junaid2 On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Dear Abdun, I think I have quoted almost everything what you wrote, in your last post. What else should I do to prove that I am reading your comments in detail???  
And where did this sarcasm came from? I just pointed out that your answers are incomplete. Why are you taking it as sarcasm? Do you think debating and asking for elaboration is sarcasm?  
 
Trust me mate, I intended no sarcasm at all. And not all ears are deaf coz a lot of other people are reading your comments too. All of them are not deaf and dumb like me, therefore it's not a pointless act if you continue writing.  
 
I think it's you who is not reading my comments, coz you are repeating again and again that I am thinking about reforming usury systems. Did I say anything about reforming usury? Not at all my friend, rather I am just talking about reforming the overall system and removing the elements of greed and selfishness from it.  
BTW What is the definition of usury according to your point of view?  
 
I am talking about identifying proper ways for a practical implementation and you have started talking about failure and disappointment. Why is that?  
 
I would request you to please read my post once again and rethink about all what I am trying to say. My aim is not to criticize you or your model, rather I am only trying to distinguish between facts and assumptions. Why can't we keep all the ground realities in view? After all you yourself admitted that you are following Islam partially.  
 
Let me assure you that you are not wasting your time or your energy. I can tell you that a lot of people are reading all what you have written so far. Obviously your comments are not just restricted to me!  
All I can say is that you need to provide proper justification for your answers. Whether I agree or disagree, it shouldn't be important for you. If your answers are logical and based on reality, a lot of other people would agree with you and this is something you should be looking at.  
 
Dear brother, I live in a country where 70% of the population is illiterate and deeply effected by the hands of poverty and suppression. I am talking about a population of 170 million people who are totally brainwashed and they won't understand these complicated things. I need a solid plan which could be conveyed to the illiterate people. I wanna do something for my people. I need a model which could easily be understood by those who have limited understanding and a weak will power. In fact their fault is that they are born in a country being ruled by elites.  
 
At this moment, when most of the people are busy in a needless debate regarding "life after death", talking about something which will happen or not happen in future, ignoring their present, I've noticed you were talking about real issues and that is the reason why I got engaged in this argument with you.  
 
You think I am wasting your time in a fruitless debate? OK fine bro, then you are free to walk away!!!

Comments by: Abdun On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salam Junaid,  
 
are you a fool, or being intentionally obtuse and misleading, throughout this thread you have taken no note of the answers and continued to repeat the same questions, you do not wish to apply the models I suggest that is fine, you have said you think there are benefits to the present usury system, and you have said you think it requires usury economics and solutions, I do not support the usury system, while you do, as you think it has benefits, and usury does benefit a few in wealth and power its true.  
 
You are still stating sophistry even in your last reply, I do not follow Islam partially, I follow Islam as far as it is possible to do, your sophistry is an affront , why do you think sophistry is an act of investigation Junaid, it is an act of corruption. You demonstrate you are not worth the effort to continue to debate with, good luck with your life.

Comments by: Junaid On 27 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Sorry I have edited my post, so you will have to read it again!  
 
No brother, I am not a fool, rather I am curious. Please see your following comments;  
 
**(I can exist to a limited degree as a Muslim,) by Abdun  
 
What else do you expect me to conclude from this statement of yours?  
 
Whats the point in saying all this then?  
**(You are still stating sophistry even in your last reply, I do not follow Islam partially, I follow Islam as far as it is possible to do, your sophistry is an affront , why do you think sophistry is an act of investigation Junaid, it is an act of corruption.) by Abdun  
 
Let me repeat what I have been saying in my previous posts;  
I have no intention to justify usury. Rather I am talking about the economic system as a whole, starting from the time of Adam Smith. I am trying to explore the positive elements of economic theories and obviously usury is not a positive aspect.  
 
Since I am disagreeing to your points, you think I am not worth of debating. What would be the case if there was no disagreement?  
Dear friend, your last sentence reminded me of a molvi in a mosque who says whatever he is willing to, but as soon as someone contradicts his statements on the basis of reason and logic, he starts accusing him as Infidel.  
 
I seriously thought you are a rational thinker who can argue and debate with tolerance and patience but now I have realized that I was wrong. You have no answer to my questions, that's why you are either accusing me of supporting usury or you declaring me a fool. I think you should have said all this in your very first reply without getting me into further debate instead of wasting my time and that of yours.  
 
NOTE: I have already asked you about your practical experience and qualification in the field of banking and economics. You have ignored the question by saying that you need no qualification to analyze this system which is totally wrong. Let me tell you that practical experience and proper qualification in this field is very important. Otherwise you won't be able to see the positive aspects hidden in the system and you'll keep ignoring things ( the way you are doing right now) using a lame argument and declaring "the whole system is a fraud".  
You can copy a lot of material from various websites to prove the whole system as fraud but without proper experience and professional knowledge, you would neither be able to understand the complex details, nor you would be able to convince others to accept your stance and reject this system.

Comments by: Junaid2 On 28 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
I would request respected admins and executive members to please take note of Mr Abdun's remarks in his last few posts. He is passing personal remarks and using abusive language for no reason as such.  
 
Now my reply to Mr. Abdun Nur;  
 
Abdun, I think you are getting too personal now. Please read the guidelines for participation in this blog!  
 
It clearly says; Use of impolite, offensive or abusive language and personal remarks of derogatory nature would disqualify you from AastanaBlog's membership.  
 
Any reader can note that I have been requesting you to justify your stance with proper logic but you are getting hyper for no reason. Your personal remarks and level of intolerance clearly shows what kind of Muslim you are.  
As a matter of fact, you are not qualified enough to understand the complexities of system therefore you are rejecting everything by declaring it a fraud.  
No Mr. Abdun, everything is not a fraud!!!  
It took centuries for mankind to evolve and get to a stage where they designed a socio-economic system for mutual benefits. Now if Mr. Tom. Dick or Harry, having no practical knowledge of the system, comes in and declares everything as useless or fraud, and that too on the basis of material copied from different websites, what would that mean?  
 
Show me your credentials and tell me that you are a qualified banker of economist. If not then it's quite obvious that you simply don't know anything about the current economics and banking, and that you are trying to mislead people using fake logic and material taken from other websites without confirming it's authenticity. You are trying to give an impression that everything is a fraud and that you are the only right person on earth.  
 
________________________________________________________________________________________  
 
Respected readers, I would like to mention that the system itself is not a fraud. It's people like Rothschild's, Rockefeller's and others who twisted the world's economy, banking and legislation, converting it to something which favors elite alone. What we need is a thorough analysis and a deeper knowledge of the system, so that we could reform it and convert it to something which is beneficial to mankind.  
 
We can always judge the system and distinguish between right and wrong with the help of permanent values provided by Quran.

Comments by: Nargis2 On 28 May 2011Report Abuse
He stands in defence of the usury system, Abdun  
 
Where did he defend the usury system,dear brother?

Comments by: Mubashir Syed On 28 May 2011Report Abuse
Dear Junaid, I agree with your below note.....  
 
Junaid : Respected readers, I would like to mention that the system itself is not a fraud. It's people like Rothschild's, Rockefeller's and others who twisted the world's economy, banking and legislation, converting it to something which favors elite alone. What we need is a thorough analysis and a deeper knowledge of the system, so that we could reform it and convert it to something which is beneficial to mankind.  
 
We can always judge the system and distinguish between right and wrong with the help of permanent values provided by Quran.  
 
Mubashir : Current flows with changed desired results and with amendments where so ever required with PROFESSIONAL approach would serve the purpose.  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.

Comments by: Abdun On 28 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Nargis2 and Mubashir Syed,  
 
the quote from Mubashir Syed expressed by Junaid is clear as to Junaids perspective, I have explained the basic fraud above in this thread, the system is based on pure usury, the theft of the fruits of another's labour, he wishes to keep the system of usury and change the names of the beneficiaries, if you reform a fraud, it is still a fraud, if you reduce the amount of theft of the fraud, it is still a fraud.  
 
I am not interested in debating the merits of the fraud, or the advantages for the few of the fraud, or the benefits a sophist would argue the fraud has allowed to be achieved, without any doubt the system of banking is a corruption of usury, it works along side and is integral with the corporate structure of business, both of which are against the law of the land, natural law, if you wish to exist within the inalienable rights of natural law you cannot reform a fraud, only expose it, and refuse to take any part in it.  
 
Sophistry is a crime when that is the intention, and I have no interest in sophist debate.

Comments by: Junaid2 On 29 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Thank you sister Nargis and Brother Mubashir, for understanding my point. The simple solution to current socio-economic issues is to IDENTIFY, SEGREGATE and finally REMOVE the element of USURY from banking and economies of today. However, this is not possible unless we acquire sufficient knowledge through education and practical experience in the field of Modern Banking and Economics. In fact usury is not just the only problem, rather there are numerous other disturbing factors as well, which can only be identified through knowledge and experience. Without proper experience and education, people will keep on confusing themselves, as well as others, (Just like Mr. Abdun is doing right now).  
 
NOTE: You cannot give the surgical equipment to a cobbler and ask him to perform a surgery of Human body. Only a qualified and experienced Doctor can do that :)

Comments by: Iqbal kay shaheen On 29 May 2011Report Abuse
Shrading meat from bone, using knife.  
 
You may be doing it in a resturant having supar. Or  
You may be a butcher. Or  
a Surgen.  
Or a murderer.  
 
Depends. :)  
 
As for your personal intentions of freeing 180 million people i am with you, Firstly we need them! they need to agree with our ideology, (Aastana right now is not even an ideology, The acrobatics scholars are going hereabout It is bound to be just a CULT)  
 
OK sorry :( maybe just what we would/could do for them If they allow us, Electrol Reforms etc, We do need those masses, Don't we?  
 
Doing is what counts. Mr Terrorist (bloody agent of personal gratification) is going to bomb India, India gona attack and take Sindh, Mr. Bhuto's Legacy and his 20 mil US$ in 1946 or 47 loan to Muhammud Ali Jinah's Government, with interest!  
 
Waderaa, Chohdaree, Zameendaar, Punjabi Musalmaan, Army, is still gona rule poor Pakistani's, Paa whom is just busy kissing Taan or Taani :)  
 
Land Reforms, are essential in Pakland, exponentional growth in Education, skills. (No Qualification Sophistry) Does Aastana not nulifies poor mullah's Qualification's of his life time study.  
 
I am with you, Lets get more user friendly platform's. like "Physical meeting's" The taan i am kissing is not on moon.  
 
There is some lines missing from the christian cross, Can you complete it.  
 
They are the two sides of "Palra's" by which we measure the BALANCE.  
 
Five cents.

Comments by: Junaid On 29 May 2011Report Abuse
People were contributing two cents each, I was collecting them all and was slowly getting rich.  
But you have shared 5 cents altogether and in one go?  
WOW mate !  
Now that's what I call a good contribution :D  
 
Dear friend I think you have pointed out some very important issues. This is what I was trying to tell the readers that they should think about the ground realities.  
 
I completely agree with you regarding the following core issues;  
 
1: Feudal mindset of Landlords  
2: Mullah dominated Rural areas of Punjab  
3: Army ruing the country (directly or indirectly)  
4: Too much Dependence on external Aid  
5: Corrupt politicians and Bureaucracy, subservient to international elites  
6: Groups of greedy Local citizens fighting against the country for money  
 
And I also agree with you regarding the following possible solutions which can liberate 180 million people;  
 
1: Land Reforms  
2: Electrol Reforms  
3: Exponential growth in Education  
4: Growth in terms of skills  
 
Out of these four points, the most important one is Education, and I am not talking about the education being provided through local schools and colleges or being sold through private institutional. I am not talking about the degrees and diplomas, rather I am talking about creating real awareness among the masses. If people could get aware of their rights as human beings, if they could be able to understand the core issues and the factors behind their real problems, they will rise on their own to break all the chains of slavery (whether it's Mullah, whether it's Army or whether it's Feudal Lords and Elites). With this education and self awareness, I am sure people will also understand the importance of technical abilities, diversity of professions and they will concentrate on improving their skills of production and services.  
Next step is Electoral reforms, since the current system is designed to serve the purpose of elites and where people cannot choose their true representatives. Perhaps the micro level public representation is the best option and as per my understanding, this issue again depends on education and level of awareness. Once people are aware of their rights, they will demand proper public representation. This proper public representation as a result of electoral reforms, will automatically solve the issues related to land and taxation reforms.  
(I am not sure whether to call it a dream, a hypothesis or sophistry. Though I've been declared as a sophist, so I think sophistry is a more suitable word here)  
 
Important question is, how can this awareness be created among masses? Do you have an answer?  
(Probably it's a very lengthy process and it will take decades if not years.)  
I hope we can continue this discussion if Aastana management allows it :)  
If not then you are most welcome to contact me through Email.  
My Email address is junaidmalik512@gmail.com (it's already mentioned in my member's profile).  
___________________________________________________________________________  
 
**(Aastana right now is not even an ideology, The acrobatics scholars are going hereabout It is bound to be just a CULT) Comments by: Iqbal kay shaheen On 29 May 2011  
 
Dear friend, I think I'll have to agree with you on this point as well, because apparently there are two groups of men in green or the executive members, moving towards two extreme opposite directions, one going North and the other going South (I am not sure why though). And I can not see an end to this "tug of war" in near future.  
 
_______________________________________________________________________________________  
 
Sorry I have never seen a Christian Cross because I am kinda allergic to religions, therefore I cannot complete the missing words. In fact I have never seen a masjid from inside since last few years, so I hope you'll understand my position :D

Comments by: Nargis On 29 May 2011Report Abuse
Dear Brother Abdun,  
 
An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.  
 
Examples:  
 
"You can't believe Jack when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."  
"Candidate Jane's proposal about zoning is ridiculous. She was caught cheating on her taxes in 2003."  
 
An abusive ad hominem can apply to a judgment of cultural works or academic efforts based on the behavior or unconventional political beliefs of an artist, author, or musician, or the taste of an infamous person who loved a certain work.  
 
Examples:  
 
Jimi Hendrix died of a drug overdose, so his music was worthless.  
Leni Riefenstahl was a Nazi, so her film The Triumph of the Will is devoid of merit.  
Sylvia Plath was a depressive who eventually committed suicide, so her works are unreadable.  
That Boris Godunov was the favorite opera of Josef Stalin indicates the worthlessness of the opera.  
What Ted Kaczynski wrote about boundary conditions in mathematics is shown false due to his crimes.  
White men are "privileged", so they can't comment on female oppression.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem  
 
is not it better if we only discuss the matter and not the person?.What do you say?  

Comments by: Junaid2 On 30 May 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
 
Sister Nargis, thank you for sharing the definition of ad hominem from Wikipedia. It is quite informative for sure!  
 
In fact I was searching for the definition of the term "molvee" and I found this one;  
 
A "molvee" (Means nothing in Latin or Greek: coz this species came into existence only a thousand years ago) is a person who comes up with a hypothesis based on his other people's opinions and then try to convince people to believe in it. In general, there are three categories of this species;  
 
First category is known as "Aggressive Molvee" which consists of individuals who normally do not encourage debate or argument and tries to avoid it. But in case if he finds no way out, he starts presenting his hypothesis in a forceful manner and when this individual fails to provide logic and reason to support his assumptions, he gets aggressive all of a sudden, giving audiences and readers a kind of surprise. In this state of aggression, he tries to discourage people from debating further using a very common tactics of personal attacks and abusive language.  
 
The second category is known as "Hypocrite Molvees" and it includes individuals who normally condemn in public, the concepts of copy rights and patent rights but in reality, they always falsely accuse others for copying their work, not admitting that they too have copied their work from various sources and that they are not even qualified to discuss it or prove it. If someone asks them for their qualification or experience regarding their work, they get aggressive (which means they also carry the tendencies of "aggressive Molvees").  
 
The third category has recently been discovered and it is known as "Unpredictable Molvee", This is the most dangerous species since it carries all the qualities of "Aggressive Molvee" [1] and "Hypocrite Molvee"[2] and in addition to that, they have the worst habit of passing on third hand information without any investigation or confirmation. This species has the tendency to fall down at the lowest level of humanity.  
 
General observation: These people can never realize that arguments backed by knowledge, based on logic and reason are better than confrontation and passing abusive remarks.  
 
Please also see the definitions of "Mullah"[4] and "Maulana"[5].  

Comments by: Abdun On 01 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam all if you would like to consider the human labour concept with good intent please feel free to ask question, if not I will leave it here.  
 
Banking is based upon tricking you into thinking money has value, so when you exchange your labour for money, you exchange it for value, however money has only perceived value, while labour has true value.  
 
Money is printed by private companies like the Bank of England, or the Federal reserve for the cost of printing, these companies hold a monopoly on that ability and charge interest upon that loaned money.  
 
They create money with perceived value, to steal labour with true value.  
 
These companies pay no taxes, as they instigated taxation upon the population, they show no accounts as without a requirement to pay tax you need show no accounts.  
 
The interest upon the loaned money from government, corporation or individuals demands they double the volume of money in circulation, on average every 10 years but it depends on the level of interested demanded, in order for the interest payments from previous loans to be met, as the principle loans represent all the money in circulation, so to pay interest on all the existing loans requires new loans to service old, a sort of paper note ponzi scheme.  
 
Labour is value, it is possible to create a system of labour exchange, within a repository model, without any fiat money, no required interest, so no inflation, no taxation to service interest on loans, no need to gain a percentage each year on your savings to stop them from losing value, due to the fraud of the banksters increasing the volume of paper money to service loans, diluting the perceived value of the money.  
 
A human labour economic system has no need of the accumulated wealth elite, it removes the advantage they enjoy, the people who work in the usury system enjoy its benefits also, they are rewarded well for deceiving people, but ultimately the fraud of money generates hardship that always results historically in destruction.

Comments by: Junaid2 On 01 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Abdun;  
 
FYI, This is a forum for Quranic research. Please stipulate quranic references to support your views. You are constantly insisting that human labor is the only means of wealth generation, Can you prove this through Quran?  
 
You are emphasizing on not paying taxes to the state and you are talking hypothetically about a soio-economic system which never existed in the past and does not exist anywhere in the world today. Would you please provide relevant verses from Quran in order to prove your points?  
 
Note: You are criticizing the banking system but you have not proved your ability to criticize. My question still stands there, that "are you qualified enough, and do you have the relevant experience of banking and economics to pass your judgement"?  
 
Why should people ask you questions regarding economics? Who are you? What is your qualification? Where do you stand? Kindly prove your worth first and then tell people to ask questions.

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 01 June 2011Report Abuse
Brother Abdun, please answer Brother Junaids questions, so we can learn from both of you. I dont know much about economy and finance, so it would be interesting to read a discussion free from personal attacks.  
 
I would love to learn about economy and what the Quran say about it.

Comments by: pervez On 01 June 2011Report Abuse
 
Dear Abdun,  
 
I had requested you to visit aastana in my e-mail to you. I hope you remember. Anyway, I read this  
thread and your work at servant of the light. You are really a learned noble man. I learn t a lot from you. I had  
also asked you about life after death and you replied in your beautiful e-mail to me.  
 
Allah bless you.

Comments by: Abdun On 01 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Nargis,  
 
sorry I gave you the impression I was granting you permission, that was not my intention, but only to point out an obvious fact, you as anyone else is free to evaluate something an draw their own conclusions, then make the judgement to accept or reject the ideas suggested.  
 
I do not use verse that much to explain concepts within the Qur'an as the translations are so far from the lexicon understandings, the simple concepts within Islam are easy to see if you are looking with a clean mind, such as Allah is the only sovereign, which itself prevents a representative dictating the actions of Muslims, or Allah is the owner of the earth and all resources, which prevents ownership, and demands rights of use.  
 
Salaam Pervez,  
 
thank you for your generous post in reguard of my website, its getting an overhaul at the moment I'm adding a shop, I am still investigating the natural law system and the fictions placed upon it, and discovering it is possible to free ourselves if we apply due process, forcing courts to administor natural law, I'm hoping to make some videos this year to post on your tube, with some luck.

Comments by: Abdun On 03 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam,  
some may wonder why I hold natural law to be so vital to Islam, after all most people do not understand natural law so wouldn't see the connection to why for example it prevents all legislation, which would then prevent all reform of legislated land rights for example, and prevents any elected representative from imposing legislation upon the population.  
 
Further it may not be clear as to the power of natural law, when very few seek or get its protection.  
 
All men/women have inalienable rights, we do not require a charter of human rights as we have these already within natural law and additionally you cannot be granted an inalienable right, an inalienable right of law cannot be altered.  
 
If we indeed do have inalienable right of natural law how come we don't know about it?  
 
The only way to remove an inalienable right is to create a fiction and ask a man/woman to consent to represent it.  
 
So when a court acts against you, it in reality acts against your strawman, your certificate of live birth, which practically is your name, you must consent to represent you name, so for example when an officer of the corporation, which in Britain would be the Crown corporation wishes to act against you they will ask you at some point, 'do you understand', this means do you stand under my authority, if you answer yes, they may act against you, as you have consented to contract to their fiction, and represent the fiction of your strawman. If this fails they will attempt to get your signature, which also grants them authority.  
 
They cannot act against you without consent, because you are fully protected by natural law, they can only act against the fiction which you consent to represent, ignorance of the system makes us slaves to the lies.  
 
If you go to a court they must also establish your consent, the first thing they must do is get you to accept responsibility for your strawman, they will ask you 'is your name Mr (Miss, Mrs)' and your full name, you will confirm your name as Mr or Mrs or Miss whatever you are called, and that grants them consent, because your name is not Mr, Mrs, Miss, these titles denote you are a slave, therefore owned by the Crown, accepting you are the property of the Crown grants them the authority over you.  
 
If you examine the court, all courts are required to apply natural law to be a court, also known as the law of the land, they do not administor this, they apply admiralty law, also known as the law of the Sea (See), this is why they are called officers of the court and police officers and officers of the Crown, just as a navel officer, you are the vessel, held in the dock, the strawman you represent is the crew man of your vessel, if an officer on a navel ship tells the court a crew man committed an offence the court will accept only one verdict, guilty, as the word of an officer cannot be questioned upon a navel vessel.  
 
The purpose of the court is not justice, it is revenue, the outcome of the court is not justice it is punishment.  
 
A person who promotes the system of legislation, and so prevents your inalienable rights is either a fool who is ignorant of the fraud, or complicit in the fraud. Without the fictions of legislation, usury would not exist, natural law prevents it.  
 
What in a nutshell I'm saying is if what is lawful is fully understood, what is legal would no longer be of any interest, the cure for the disease of the world is natural law, it removes all the symptoms.

Comments by: Junaid On 03 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Abdun;  
 
Despite repeated requests by various participants, you have not provided a single Quranic reference to support your theory which says "Human Labor is the only means of wealth generation".  
 
You have totally ignored the factor of investment in terms of money or commodities. In fact you have presented a hypothesis which is primarily based on the concepts of a restricted barter, that is; "exchange of labor alone".  
 
You have also ignored a vary important point which revolves around the fact that a community needs public services, for example; Electricity, Gas, Water supply, Sewerage systems, roads, dams, cleaning and maintenance.  
If everyone is busy in exchanging his / her labor, who will handle the public works?  
 
It is quite obvious that a community or a state needs funds to run it's daily affairs. But if the economy is primarily based on the concepts of barter trade in terms of Human labor, How will the state run it's miscellaneous affairs?  
How will the community generate it's development and non-development funds?  
 
No state or community can have abundance of all the natural resources in a certain region under it's use. The state certainly needs to import and export various commodities, and has to retain a balance of payments. How would a state be able to handle "Import and exports' when it's economy is based entirely on the concept of barter of human labor?  
 
Also to mention that despite all the internal growth and prosperity, a community cannot ignore external threats and at times do need to defend it's territory from aggressors. How will the community or a state, manage the defense expenditure (in form of resources, training and equipment) in an economy based on human energy barter?  
 
What about diversity in tastes, choices, preferences and aptitude which is an important part of human nature, and it demands adaptation of different standards of living?  
 
Advancement in terms of science and technology is a very important aspect;  
Who will manage the education sector? Who will spend his/her time and energy on this particular sector?  
 
As a matter of fact, you have ignored all these factors and you have not quoted even a single word from Quran, yet you insist that your theories are correct !!!  
_____________________________________________________________________________________  
 
Now you are talking about a "Natural Law" and saying that no one is aware of such law. Probably another hypothesis based on your assumption and again it is not supported by any reference from Quran. I would suggest you to kindly provide Quranic references to present this theory of natural law.  
 
_____________________________________________________________________________________  
 
Also to remind you that you have not quoted a single reference from Quran to support your inference regarding AL-RIBA. You said it means "stealing fruits of other's labor", while you completely ignored all the other factors which are causing so much economic injustice today. Tell me where is the Quranic proof for your statement?  
 
You just said in a reply to sister Nargis that;  
**(I do not use verse that much to explain concepts within the Qur'an as the translations are so far from the lexicon understandings,) by Abdun  
 
OK Fine if the current translations are far from lexicon understanding. How about sharing what you understood from lexicons? Why are you so reluctant to quote Quran?  
 
NOTE: Human Life is not that simple my friend, and so is economics. Both are very complicated and you need to look at all the aspects before coming up with a theory and sharing it with others. I hope this time you will reply in a mature way using proper logic, reason and justification instead of displaying a childish attitude.

Comments by: Abdun On 04 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam all,  
 
I have had no response to my post on natural law, am I wasting my time post here?  
 
Natural law is a fundamental to bind yourself to; it is universal in power and inalienable in nature, the fictions of legislation are exposed by the law, the accumulated wealth elite have invested enormous efforts to manufacture the present fictions to hide the law.  
 
The religious manufactured the legislative system originally, which evolved into the secular legislative system, Sharia law is an example of this fraud upon natural law, Sharia law is based upon extreme Christian dogma.  
 
Usury is removed by natural law, in its many and varied inventions, so to establish Islam natural law must be understood - is no one interested in understanding their inalienable rights?  
 
The silence is dissapointing.

Comments by: Junaid On 04 June 2011Report Abuse
Abdun, this is to remind you that aastana is a Quranic research forum, while you are reluctant to quote references from Quran to support your theories.  
 
You have presented the following theories;  
 
1: Human labor is the only means of wealth generation.  
2: AL-RIBA only means stealing the fruits of other's Labor.  
3: Natural Law is the only Law on earth.  
 
Unfortunately you have not provided any logic or justification and you have not quoted even a single word from Quran as reference. How can you expect readers to follow you blindly?  
 
Also to mention that you have no qualification or experience in the fields of Banking, Economics or Law.  
Why do you expect the readers to believe you? and on what basis?

Comments by: Nargis On 04 June 2011Report Abuse
I have had no response to my post on natural law, am I wasting my time post here? Abdun  
 
Brother, maybe it is because its your personal opinion and no ref to the Quran is given to support your claims?  
 
when i read Allama parwez translation, i get lost in all the words and explainations, i dont know where the aya is and where personal interpretion,opinion and understanding starts. to me its all a mess, because some if it doesnt make sense, so i wonder HOW did he come to that conclusion...? Then i met Aastana and my questions were answered, and strictly through the Quran.  
 
**(I do not use verse that much to explain concepts within the Qur'an as the translations are so far from the lexicon understandings,) by Abdun  
 
Ok, so then you dont know whats in the Quran just like the rest of us, then how can you give an islamiq concept of economy at all?  
 
Please dont say Nargis is a sophist and should be avoided, because thats not true. dont say im Sophia either, coz im not...But you can say Nargis is evil devil deluded stupid confused ugly NOT sophisticated and much more  
 
BUT GUESS WHAT?  
 
you still have to show ayas from the Quran when an "Islamic economy system" or anything islamiq,,is presented hahahaha

Comments by: Abdun On 04 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Nargis,  
 
I have never stated anyone on this forum is a sophist except Junaid, as he is, I wouldn't state anyone was intentionally misrepresenting or corrupting the truth unless they did so consistently and continually as Junaid. When a person intentionally twist what has been written by another to paint a lie in place of the truth they are to be avoided, as it serves no benefit to exchanging views or information, it prevents that.  
 
What I have stated is not my personal opinion, natural law is a reality in the world, as is the reality of human efforts being the only thing in the world that generates wealth; how could a bar of gold generate wealth its an inanimate object without the ability to generate anything itself, just as a pile of paper debt certificates have no ability to generate wealth, it has always been and will always be human efforts.  
 
The Qur'an, if you believe it is sourced from the universe directly, must take account of the realities of the universe, natural law is inalienable and universal, if people exist in isolation natural law self generates, this is because it is not based upon punishment and revenue like the fictions of legislation, but upon victim remedy.  
 
I have a copy of the Ghulam Amhad Parwez, Exposition of the Holy Qur'an, but I struggle to see how he has established much of what he states in his translations, if you investigate the lexicons it does not add up often, what needs to be done is not a translation, but a translation with full referenced lexicon support.  
 
I have asked Badar to establish some form of reference to support each word of the ayahs he translates, as without that referencing it becomes just another translation no better than personal opinion.  
 
I did pick a single verse of the Qur'an to demonstrate the idea of referencing the link is here, extensive referencing of sources for each definition makes the translation have some authority, as it can be easily varified.  
 
http://servantofthelight.com/content/view/193/229/  
 
I hope Badar takes notice of this concept, until he does it is hard to get people enthusiastically behind the effort of an accurate translation, to me it doen't matter if you spend a month on each ayah to expose it to referenced methodical investigation.  
 
Reason must be the prerequisite of all investigation and conclusion, of course no one is bound to apply reason, each must act as they wish.

Comments by: Junaid On 04 June 2011Report Abuse
Abdun,  
 
You have written a whole page once again, based on your assumptions and hypothesis, but you didn't provide any reference from Quran, despite being requested again and again. I just can't understand why are you so reluctant to quote Quran.  
 
A bar of Gold cannot generate wealth itself but with mental efforts applied by a human brain, it can do so. Gold, Silver or money is a supporting factor in our economic activities and it is according to the nature of mankind which needs incentives in return of efforts. A person will not put in his efforts without incentives.  
 
As far as money is concerned, the value attached to the paper money is as genuine as the value attached to Gold or Silver, because all these values are man-made. Gold is valuable because we consider it as valuable. Gold has more value as compared to Silver, because we have determined it's value through economic principles and market operations. Likewise paper money has it's value because the market forces acting according to principles of economics have assigned a certain value to it. If Gold holds a universal value, so does a currency, such as US Dollar. It is the currency being used in International trade and with mutual consent of all the countries of the world. It will not be declined until it gets devalued with mutual consent of everyone. People will not stop accepting it unless all the countries of the world mutually agrees and decides not to accept it. What's wrong with it's value then?  
 
You are asking people to believe something only because you are saying so? Why do you expect them to do that?  
Why should they believe you and your hypothesis? Whats your credibility?  
 
Let me remind you again that you have not provided any references from Quran and you have not proved your authority in terms of qualification and experience to accept or reject the current economic system.  
 
Now before you come and write a line for me, let me write it myself;  
 
Junaid is a sophist and should be avoided, thank you.

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
Heyy you cant say that he already sait it hahahaha  
 
childish people think i need to do my kung fu karate on you while im listening to hits for kids.
 
 
Dear brother Abdun said:  
 
What I have stated is not my personal opinion, natural law is a reality in the world, as is the reality of human efforts being the only thing in the world that generates wealth; how could a bar of gold generate wealth its an inanimate object without the ability to generate anything itself, just as a pile of paper debt certificates have no ability to generate wealth, it has always been and will always be human efforts.
 
The Qur'an, if you believe it is sourced from the universe directly, must take account of the realities of the universe, natural law is inalienable and universal, if people exist in isolation natural law self generates, this is because it is not based upon punishment and revenue like the fictions of legislation, but upon victim remedy.  
 
 
 
Its fantastic to see your points and expressing your thoughts. Now how do you know you are right? how do you know your observations and calculatins are right?  
 
Here i have problems, because any claim we come up with in relation to the Quran, must be proven. And the Quran must confirm it , no other book or personal opinion can do that. Thats all. Since i already said that i feel im repeating myself, bu hu.  
 
But here im goin to say something new,attention please  
 
correct me if im wrong, but i understood from your above posts that you dnt even know how to research the Arabic verses of The Quran. Yet, you say that you dont want to use the English translations for his views. Well, there are two problems with u doing this :  
 
1) First of all, if u dont know Arabic, then HOW can you tell what is an accurate translation from an inaccurate translation?  
 
2)secondly, if you are not using The Quran (Arabic or English Translations) to back up your views, then u are most certainly presenting your OWN IDEAS!!  
 
They are not Quranic views at all, they Abdunic views with no quranic reference.  
 
So dear brother, How would you like it if someone kept posting "Abdun is a Non Quranic Student and Should Be Avoided. THANK YOU!" ?  
 
If you got my point, then you both should giveeach other a hug and start all over again. nothing wrong in disagreeing and arguing,fighting pulling each others hair, breaking legs, twistin arms etc etc etc ,but  
 
DEBATE, DONT HATE (i always wanted to say that hahahahaa)  
 
oii look, i found you girls on net,  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaoFz74n5Yg  
 
I am the one with the flute, stiff as a statue of watching the fight hahahaha

Comments by: Abdun On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Nargis-Badshah,  
where did I state "above posts that you dnt even know how to research the Arabic verses of The Quran", are you inventing reality like Junaid? What is true is a detailed investigation must be under taken to establish the true meanings of the Ayahs of the Qur'an, something no one has undertaken, as it requires full referencing.  
 
I think you are mistaking me for another type of person, judging from the manor of your post, I was under the wrong impression of this site, I thought people posted who applied reason and wished to investigate and consider from every angle but it seems not, even in the poor translation of the Qur'an the concepts I present exist.  
 
If you cannot see them you have not understood what is written within the Qur'an, you have simply read it.  
 
The foundation of natural law is every man/woman is equal, unlike the present admiralty law system which allows the accumulated wealth elite to act in whatever way they desire without consequence, an example of which would be Tony Blair causing to be murdered, through his actions, a million or more people in Iraq and Afghanistan, without personal consequence to himself or those directly responsible.  
 
All men/women are equal by virtue of being a man/woman and having a common origin (4:1, 10:19, 17:70, 49:13). Hence people of all races (30:23), women (4:32), impoverished people (9:60), and disabled people (70:25) are to be treated as equals.  
 
You can take this natural law concept further.  
 
All men/women have a right to equal socio-economic treatment, irrespective of race, caste or creed (2:62, 5:69). All have a right to receive justice, and that is different from punishing the guilty, it is in giving remedy to the victim, and to receive indemnification (ihsan) in the event of injustice or loss (16:90). It follows that no economic principles should be put into effect that would hinder the processes of socio-economic justice (victim remedy) (30:39, 4:29).  
 
So just as Islam prevents the modern usury economic system so does Natural law, they are one in the same, it's just people are so invested within the lies and confusions of the present systems they cannot allow themselves to accept there maybe an alternative, and attack, and attempt to riddicule the alternative.  
 
Natural law states you cannot encroach upon another person or their right to property/resource.  
 
Allah does not compel, so why do you allow others to compel you, that is an encroachment (2:256, 10:99-100).  
 
Natural law requires written contract just as Islam, it prevents legislation because legislation is imposed contract without consent, while natural law demands all contracts are only between identified man/woman not an abstract fiction of state, corporation or church, this mean a contract must be established to bind yourself to a local community directly with named members.  
 
The same concept of natural law that states all men/women are equal prevents any sovereign upon another, as a sovereign is a superior over an inferior man/woman, (20:114) There are many references in the poor translations to these concepts, instead of writing rubbish about kung fu maybe your time would be better spent investigating if natural law is indeed as I explain within the Qur'an, or are you incapable of applying yourself to such a task and can only write 'hahaha' like a braying donkey?  
 
Anyway I don't think I'll post here any longer, braying donkeys annoy me too much.

Comments by: Damon On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
Abdun,  
 
I wish to point out a contradiction in your statements.  
 
(Abdun) - even in the poor translation of the Qur'an the concepts I present exist.  
 
Is this not a contradiction to a statement you have made on June 01 in this thread?  
 
(Abdun) - I do not use verse that much to explain concepts within the Qur'an as the translations are so far from the lexicon understandings.  
 
You have made the decision to no longer post here and I personally believe that is because Nargis had asked you two very important questions that you have not (and cannot) answer.  
 
It isn't YOU that people are having a hard time accepting. It is the ideas that you are presenting, but you are asking people to simply accept your ideas at face value. And you seem to have a problem with people who question your views and people who ask for quranic references in support of your views.  
 
For the sake of my own personal curiosity, I am interested in what answer you have to Nargis' two questions she asked you in her last post.  
 
Lastly, you are name calling (your "braying donkeys" remark). Just remember that while you are pointing your finger at others here, there are naturally three other fingers pointing directly at you simultaneously.  
 
With no intentions to offend or take sides.  
 
Regards,  
Damon.

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
daaamn some1 is pissed, its okay to be a donkey, or braying donkey, as long as its not a stupid donkey,,,or aggressive donkey hahaha,,oooops now your having your pms attack again? hahaha sorry cant help it, angry people makes me laugh :D  
 
Oh come on, if you are ever goin to insult someone, do it by answering their Questions,,,,name calling is so last year :P :P  
 
anyway, lets go back to the questions,  
 
1) First of all, if u dont know Arabic, then HOW can you tell what is an accurate translation from an inaccurate translation?  
 
2)secondly, if you are not using The Quran (Arabic or English Translations) to back up your views, then u are most certainly presenting your OWN IDEAS!!  
 
no?  
 
and thank you for providing ayas to back up some of your views, now the reader can do a research and find out whats written there.

Comments by: Damon On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
This contradictory statement as well,  
 
(Abdun) - There are many references in the poor translations to these concepts,  
 
As contrasted with;  
 
(Abdun) - I do not use verse that much to explain concepts within the Qur'an as the translations are so far from the lexicon understandings

Comments by: Abdun On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Damon,  
 
no its not a contradiction, the concepts are touched upon in many many places even in the poor translations, but the translations are not trusted as correct in detail, in general the overview supports the concepts.  
 
Maybe people should investigate the concepts instead of focusing on me, I am not the concepts and I am not the one to judge to accept the concepts, all people on this forum seem to want to do if find an expert, none exist, they are flights of fancy, we are required each one of us to prove concepts as true to ourselves, I am not wanting to represent an authority I want to explain concepts and you may investigate them for yourselves, if you reject them out of hand that is also your choice, but to twist what I express repeatedly into a misrepresentation of the truth as Junaid is certainly not conducive to an exchange of ideas.  
 
I do not use verse much as its so badly interpreted, but you are free to investigate the true meanings also, and are free to share any findings to support or refute the concepts I present, none of which involves me, I will exchange ideas, but to demand I prove I am an authority or to take the most serious ideas of life as jokes and nonsense, I find insulting.  
 
I will leave you all to joking and expert authorities like Junaid, this is certainly all I will say, its a shame people are so foolish.

Comments by: Junaid On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
A person criticizing almost everyone and everything in the world. All the systems, all the people, all the legislation's, everything is wrong. Only Mr. Abdun is right.  
 
And guess what!  
 
you cannot even contradict his statements or ask questions. If you do so, he will call you a fool, a sophist and a donkey too :D  
 
A person who talks about mankind and natural laws but he is totally unaware of social and moral ethics regarding how to behave with female members of a forum.  
 
Why do you want us to do all the investigation? Isn't it your responsibility to support what you are presenting with Quranic references or at least proper logic and reason?  
 
Abdun mate, let me give you a free advice;  
Dude you definitely need to see a Psychiatrist coz you look mentally ill.  
 
AND HOW DARE YOU CALL OUR BADSHAH SALAAMAT A DONKEY?  
 
SIPOY;  
IS GUSTAAKH MOLVEE KA SAR QALAM KAR DIYA JAAYE !!!  
 
Note: Please see the definition of Molvee provided in a post above.

Comments by: Damon On 05 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Abdun, Peace Be Unto You,  
 
Okay, so from reading your latest post (in addition to your other posts in this thread) I have noted the following three things of your position.  
 
1). You do not like to use Quranic verses (Arabic or English Translation) in your essays for the reasons you have given; namely inaccuracies, mistranslations, etc.  
 
2). The concepts that you are presenting are clear even if one uses the very bad English translations.  
 
3). People should take the responsibility to investigate the concepts themselves (after you have presented the concepts).  
 
Am I correct so far?  
 
Lastly Brother Abdun, you are very critical of others here. Like all human beings, you too have your imperfections, which includes understanding of the essence of many core Quranic concepts. I too have those short comings, so please do not think that I am merely pointing my finger at you.  
 
The problem is that I see you as constantly putting everyone else here under a microscope and making judgements upon your observations through that microscope. A typical flaw that all of US human beings have (myself included) is that we seldom, if ever, look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that WE TOO are under someone's microscope...and for the SAME REASON that THEY are under OUR microscopes.  
 
I ask you to please refer to 49/11 to understand what I am trying to say to you. Please do not be concerned with translation, the Arabic verse, context, lexicons or any of that. Please just ponder on the essence and the underlying message of that one particular verse.  
 
Fi'amanillah,  
Damon.

Comments by: Abdun On 06 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Damon,  
 
if I have insulted without just cause I apologise, your post above is correct in its conclusions on the three points listed, it seems from my perspective if a person is interested in learning or sharing knowledge they have to apply themselves to that task, acting as a clown or intentionally perverting what has been stated to plant confusion in the minds of others is a problem. How would you deal with it?  
 
Anyway clowns and corrupters of truth fill the earth in our modern world unfortunately, what can you do. I did show tolerance with Junaid if you read the thread from the start, but he broke all bounds of honesty.  
 
Sorry I bothered to write on the forum now. Anyway Salaam.

Comments by: moazzam On 06 June 2011
Brother Junaid, Sister Nargis, Abdun Bhai !  
Abdun ! Even in the poor translation of the Qur'an the concepts I present exist.  
 
If you cannot see them you have not understood what is written within the Qur'an, you have simply read it.  
Moazzam! Although your stance regarding equality in gender is partially and with respect to creed/caste 100% right, but the references you quoted as per orthodox translation are going against your claim.  
Abdun ! The foundation of natural law is every man/woman is equal, unlike the present admiralty law system which allows the accumulated wealth elite to act in whatever way they desire without consequence.  
Moazzam ! You are right.  
Abdun ! All men/women are equal by virtue of being a man/woman and having a common origin (4:1, 10:19, 17:70, 49:13). Hence people of all races (30:23), women (4:32), impoverished people (9:60), and disabled people (70:25) are to be treated as equals.  
Moazzam ! your stance is right but references you quoted are not supportive. let us analyze the references you given.  
4:1= this verse is talking about the weaker segment (nisa) and the powerful people (rajjal) of the society. Remember the “Nikah” as per context of the subject means the social/business contract.  
10:19 = this verse is describing the (basis of) division of people in deferent sects  
You can take this natural law concept further.  
17: 70 = Not relevant to the subject.  
49: 13 = Yes, the eternal standard to evaluate the worth of the people in general has been described.  
Abdun ! All men/women have a right to equal socio-economic treatment, irrespective of race, caste or creed (2:62, 5:69). All have a right to receive justice, and that is different from punishing the guilty, it is in giving remedy to the victim, and to receive indemnification (ihsan) in the event of injustice or loss (16:90). It follows that no economic principles should be put into effect that would hinder the processes of socio-economic justice (victim remedy) (30:39, 4:29).  
Moazzam!Yes it is.  
Abdun! So just as Islam prevents the modern usury economic system so does Natural law, they are one in the same, it's just people are so invested within the lies and confusions of the present systems they cannot allow themselves to accept there maybe an alternative, and attack, and attempt to ridicule the alternative.  
Moazzam! It seems your economic vision is limited(you might not the professional of the field.  
 
Abdun! Natural law states you cannot encroach upon another person or their right to property/resource.  
Allah does not compel, so why do you allow others to compel you that is an encroachment (2:256, 10:99-100).  
Moazzam! Yes,there should not be any encroachment at all, but you are falsely implementing these verses at above said situation.  
Natural law requires written contract just as Islam, it prevents legislation because legislation is imposed contract without consent, while natural law demands all contracts are only between identified man/woman not an abstract fiction of state, corporation or church, this mean a contract must be established to bind your self to a local community directly with named members.  
Moazzam ! Indeed a very narrow vision of social current modles.  
 
Abdun! The same concept of natural law that states all men/women are equal prevents any sovereign upon another, as a sovereign is a superior over an inferior man/woman, (20:114) there are many references in the poor translations to these concepts.  
Moazzam! 20:114 this verse demanding deep insight in Quran. Remember this forum is also presenting the same theme of equality in human rights irrespective of gender, races, caste, and creed.  
Brother Junaid! Being an economist you have more responsibility at your shoulders, include the verses 10/88,43/32,43/33-35 and especial attention should be given at story of QAROON in verses 28/76-88, while designing any socio economic system in this era.  

Comments by: Damon On 06 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Abdun,  
 
I too will have to make this my final post as well since I have been dealing with CTS and it isn't getting any better because I keep typing.  
 
I only wish to say that given the aforementioned three points that I have raised (and to which you said my assessment was correct), perhaps it would be more prudent if you adopt the routine of "citing" the ayaat "numbers" you feel support your views. This way you don't have to post the actual ayaat themselves or deal with poor English Translations and your audience has the references they require to fulfill their responsibility and further investigate your views. Now all three points are fulfilled.  
 
This is just my humble suggestion if you choose to post anymore after this.  
 
Fi'amanillah,  
Damon.

Comments by: Adnan On 09 June 2011
Notice:  
All irrelevant comments are stand removed from this Thread. Now any kind of personal remarks/references will not be entertained and right of cancellation of membership stated under Rule 8 of “Guidelines for Participation of AastanaBlog” will be exercised.  
 
Rule 8.  
- Use of impolite, offensive or abusive language and personal remarks of derogatory nature would disqualify you from AastanaBlog’s membership.

Comments by: Junaid On 16 June 2011Report Abuse
The word "SOPHIST" has been used at least 30 times in this discussion and I was wondering what it actually means.  
Finally I found the right meaning. Let me share it with you all;  
 
SOPHIST:  
The Sophist (Greek: Σοφιστής) is a Platonic dialogue from the philosopher's late period, most likely written in 360 BCE. Having criticized his Theory of Forms in the Parmenides, Plato presents a a new conception of the forms in the Sophist,  
"Sophist is a person who has a SOFA".  
Well, I have two, which means I am a double sophist :D

Comments by: Safiur On 25 February 2015Report Abuse
Salaam Abdun  
I don't think you have invented a new concepts. The facts you expressed are the basics of modern day banking. The whole world knows modern banking system based on fiat debt money and fractional reserve system is a disaster. However, I share a fact for you. People say you can't teach a paki.  
Best of luck

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