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TRANSLATION OF QURAN
BY DR. QAMAR ZAMAN
Translation Status
آیات
سورۃ
نمبر
1-7 الفَاتِحَة -1
1-286 البَقَرَة -2
1-200 آل عِمرَان -3
1-176 النِّسَاء -4
1-120 المَائدة -5
1-165 الاٴنعَام -6
1-206 الاٴعرَاف -7
1-75 الاٴنفَال -8
1-129 التّوبَة -9
1-109 یُونس -10
1-123 هُود -11
1-111 یُوسُف -12
1-43 الرّعد -13
1-52 إبراهیم -14
1-99 الحِجر -15
1-128 النّحل -16
1-111 بنیٓ اسرآئیل / الإسرَاء -17
1-110 الکهف -18
1-98 مَریَم -19
1-135 طٰه -20
1-112 الاٴنبیَاء -21
1-78 الحَجّ -22
1-118 المؤمنون -23
1-64 النُّور -24
1-77 الفُرقان -25
1-227 الشُّعَرَاء -26
1-93 النَّمل -27
1-88 القَصَص -28
1-69 العَنکبوت -29
1-60 الرُّوم -30
1-34 لقمَان -31
1-30 السَّجدَة -32
1-73 الاٴحزَاب -33
1-54 سَبَإ -34
1-45 فَاطِر -35
1-83 یسٓ -36
1-182 الصَّافات -37
1-88 صٓ -38
1-75 الزُّمَر -39
1-85 المؤمن / غَافر -40
1-54 حٰمٓ السجدة / فُصّلَت -41
1-54 القَمَر -54
Read Now


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ARTICLES
QURAN FEHMI
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45:26 Say, "It is God Who gives you life, and then causes you to die. And He will gather all of you together on the Resurrection Day, the advent of which is beyond doubt.” But most people do not know  
 
Isnt this ayah talks about life after death.
Add Your Comments  Question by: SAEED On 16 June 2011
Comments by: ali.haideer On 16 June 2011Report Abuse
"It is God(DIVINE REVELATION) Who gives you life(PERSON ACTING ACCORDINGLY WILL BE CONSCIOUS/EDUCATED), and then causes you to die(IF NOT FOLLOWING LAWS OF NATURE HE WILL BE IN IGNORANCE). And He(SYSTEM/HEAD OF STATE) will gather all of you together on the Resurrection Day(WHEN THE SYSETM WILL BE ESTABLISHED), the advent of which is beyond doubt.” But most people do not know(THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN SURELY).  
Correct me please where ever I have made mistakes.  
Ali

Comments by: Junaid On 16 June 2011Report Abuse
Seems quite reasonable.  
Just one thing I would like to add;  
 
**THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN SURELY**  
Surely but not automatically!  
We (mankind) will have to strive to achieve this.

Comments by: UmeAimon On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Salam,  
 
It seems a little odd... who gives you life and causes you to die!! In brackettes to explain...if not followed !!  
Shouldnt it be have been said that way in the first place?  
This is something that if said is explained so people don't get confused.  
I mean take this example...This medicine will cure and will kill if taken too much!  
Why the style that creates ambiguity?  
 
UmeAimon

Comments by: pervez On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
.  
 
 
Unless God is immanent (involved) in human affairs, how can His laws be relevant? Unless God actively enforces His laws as the great Sustainer of the universe, why should we obey the rules He prescribes for our conduct?  
 
Unless God has revealed His law authoritatively, how can we know any of it for certain? Unless God clearly and authoritatively revealed His law to us for the governance of society, how could He hold us accountable for its obedience? In other words, isn't even God under a duty to promulgate his laws?  
 
If no transcendent God exists, is law unavoidably arbitrary? Without God, who is there who can declare absolutely what is right or wrong, or why?  
 
 
 

Comments by: moazzam On 17 June 2011
Dear Saeed! Read the translation by Dr Qamarzaman, Which might helpful to make you clear at 45/26.  
2/28  
كَيْفَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُمْ أَمْوَاتًا فَأَحْيَاكُمْ ۖ ثُمَّ يُمِيتُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُحْيِيكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ  
 
 
کیونکر تم قوانین قدرت کا انکار کر سکتے ہو۔ جب کہ تم محکوم تھے توتم کو آزادی دی مزید یہ کہ تم محکوم بھی ہوتے ہو اور آزاد بھی رہو گے اور اسی کے قوانین کی طرف لوٹائے جاؤگے۔  
732/  
فَقُلْنَا اضْرِبُوهُ بِبَعْضِهَا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يُحْيِي اللَّهُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَيُرِيكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ  
 
 
تو ہم نے کہا کہ ان احکامات کو نفس مضمون کے بعض حصوں کے ذریعے بیان کرو ۔ اس طرح وحی الہی مردہ( قوم ) کو زندہ کرتا ہے اور تم کو اپنے احکامات سمجھاتا ہے تاکہ تم عقل سے کام لو۔  
 
 
مباحث:۔  
یہ قانون قدرت ہے کہ انسان مرنے کے بعد کبھی زندہ نہیں ہوا ہے ۔ البتّہ وحی الہی کے مقابلے پر اگرروایات کا سہارہ لیا جائے تو قوم مردہ ہو جاتی ہے ،لیکن اگر واپس وحی کی طرف پلٹ جائے تو وہی قوم زندہ ہو جاتی ہے اس آیت میں اضربو ہ کے معنی مارنا نہیں ہیں بلکہ بیان کرنا ہیں اور "ہ" کا مرجع وہ کتاب ہے جس کو چھپایا جا رہا تھا۔ ببعضھا میں ھا کا مرجع وہ نفس ہے جسے پس پشت ڈال دیا جاتا ہے  
 
2/154  
وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَن يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَشْعُرُونَ  
 
 
اور جو لوگ احکامات الہی کی راہ میں لڑائی کئے جائیں ان کو ناکام مت کہو وہ ناکام نہیں ہیں بلکہ زندگی دینے والے ہیں لیکن تم سمجھتے نہیں ہو ۔  
 
 
لفظ : قتل مادہ ۔۔"ق ت ل " معنی ۔۔لڑائی کرنا جھگڑا کرنا حتی کہ جان سے مار دینا بھی شامل ہے۔  
لفظ: موت مادہ۔۔"م و ت" معنی۔۔مادی لحاظ سے جسمانی موت،مقصد کے لحاظ سے ناکامی۔قوم بھی مردہ ہو جاتی ہے۔  
 
 
 
 
 

Comments by: UmeAimon On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Moazzam,  
 
As this translation has already been done by Dr. Qamar , I have a direct question... Who made this "qanoon e Qudrat" of "not" living again. Is it something that was said in Quran? or something that humans discovered or found out??  
and this life and death explaination also does not explain the reason this ayat has been said in a particular way...  
.  
 
UmeAimon

Comments by: Junaid On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaam;  
Brother Moazzam. thanks for sharing the translation by Dr. Qamar. The concept of life and death can easily be understood very clearly from these verses. It makes a lot of sense to me and I completely agree with you on this!

Comments by: moazzam On 17 June 2011
Sister Umaimon! Regards.  
Umaimon! Who made this "qanoon e Qudrat" of "not" living again. Is it something that was said in Quran? or something that humans discovered or found out??  
 
Moazzam! Allah made and we discovered.  
 

Comments by: UmeAimon On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Salam again,  
 
So you are saying this on the basis of human discovery and NOT as per QURAN!!!!  
Let me rephrase You are actually understanding QURAN on the basis of human discovry/ies, am I right???  
 
UmeAimon

Comments by: dawood On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Thank you Sister UmeAimon. I have similar questions and concerns. If the same word could mean many things in various places, why to use the same specific word to begin with? How does this compare with the statement "Arabic Mubeen..?" Are there not enough exact words available in the Arabic language to describe the exact situation? Why to create this confusion and yet name it ...it is MUBEEN, clear, etc ....?

Comments by: dawood On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Brs. and Srs: What is the difference between "ALmaut" and simple "Maut?" Two of the three verses quoted above by Br. Moazzam contain "maut" instead of "almaut." On what basis do we classify these as "Nakami?" Thanks.

Comments by: Nargis On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
There is a difference between a noun and a proper noun, and the context will tell you what’s meant by its use in various places in the Quran  
 
If “the house” is not separated from “house”, then you will be confused what house the author is talking about if the intention is to talk about a particular house.  
 
Mubeen Arabic is not a reference to the language, but to the content which is conveyed in a clear and intelligent way  
It is the way the message is compiled, expressed and conveyed that is Arabic. It’s written in a self-explanatory way so it’s easy to understand and sense, that’s why it’s Arabic.  
 
Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona 41:3  
 
A Book, whereof the verses Are explained in detail; — A Qur-ān in Arabic, for people who understand;—  
 
Loads of people who speak arabic dont understand the content and message (thats why salat is namaaz to them ) and people who don’t understand Arabic will still comprehend the message, why is it emphasized that it’s in Arabic so people UNDERSTAND?  
 
Understanding, brainpower, intellect is needed to understand the basic message the author want you to get, the way it is conveyed will help people who work hard to understand to get to its core, language is the display…If you don’t know Arabic language, no matter how hard you try to UNDERSTAND, you won’t understand it if you don’t know the language.  
 
But loads of people know Arabic and still doesn’t understand…because they cant comprehend the content.  
 
When we are discussing the Quran here, we are talking in English, to UNDERSTAND the CONTENT of the Quran, that’s why we use SIAQ O SABAAQ to get the sense of the message…  
 
If it’s not well written, then we won’t get the core of the message. Something well written and well explained, is “Arabic”. Wikipedia :-The root of the word has many meanings in Semitic languages including "west/sunset," "desert," "mingle," "merchant," "raven" and are "COMPREHENSIBLE"  
 
so if we translate the word and put it in the aya it is like :-  
 
'A Book, whereof the verses Are explained in detail; — A Qur-ān in which is COMPREHENSIBLE/ Arabic, for people who understand;—  
 
Do you see how the painting changed and it makes sense?  
 
Also have a look at Lane’s explanation  
 
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
 

Comments by: Nargis On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
When we say "smoking kills", it is meant that the damage done to your body by smoking, will kill bill, i mean you.  
 
So it is encoded in the laws of nature that the body can be damaged by a certain amount of nicotine and when its so damaged that it can’t work properly, then it may lead to a physical death  
 
Same goes with the "second" part of the law of nature, if you stop using your brain, then a natural blockage will be placed around you (by yourself), and hinder any new information to be absorbed by your intellect.  
 
That is another death, worse than the other one, leading to a zombie life  
 
So the law is made like that by the Creator, and conveyed to us in the Quran.  
 
Physical death is not to be escaped from, but mental and intellectual death can be avoided, which is what the Quran is an instruction for, namely to avoid “academic “death so your mental growth is not stagnated

Comments by: dawood On 17 June 2011Report Abuse
Thank you dear sister Nargis for your kind explanation, although I had already gathered that much from various posts and writings in this forum and from Dr. Qz's books/articles.  
 
I will try to ask this question in a different way. Suppose you have a book and the author of that book claims that this book is distinct/clear, etc. and is meant for all humans, including every top-, mid-, and low-level intellectual. However when a top-level intellectual (like yourself) reads it tells me (a low-level intellectual) that a particular word means different things at different places. I can digest this much as long as there are no exact words in that language for the situations described in two different places. But if there does exist exact word to describe a particular situation, yet a different word is used by the author to describe that situation, I am confused and concerned about the validity of the claim of the author. So my question is: Are there not enough words in Arabic language to describe various situations clearly and unambiguously? Examples are: “Ahkamat-e-Illahi,” “mumlakat-e-Khudadad”, “Nakami (failure),” “maut”, “ Mahkoom (Ghulam/slavery),” “Azadi,” “Qudrat,” etc?  
 

Comments by: Anwar On 18 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Brothers n Sisters,  
 
Dawood has a very good point. I too believe the Quran is easy to understand.  
Indeed it's purpose is to provide a guiding light to mankind so mankind can take heed BEFORE THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH ARRIVES.  
 
In short, the QURAN warns us also to change our unrighteous ways before physical death which is the point of no return.  
That I believe is its MAIN PURPOSE.  
 
Establishment of DIVINE STATE is also a major goal however you can NEVER CHANGE THE EXTERNAL WITHOUT FIRST CHANGING THE INTERNAL. This is why I believe QURAN is first and foremost a spiritual text for divine guidance to the INDIVIDUAL SOUL.  
 
Peace

Comments by: moazzam On 18 June 2011
Dear Dawood Bhai! Although Sister Nargis explained the matter in such a comprehensive way, that nothing is needed to add up further more.  
To understand the message of Alkitab we have to focus at ‘TASREEF AL AYAAT” and “RATTIL AL QURANA TARTEELA” if we adopt these ways then this book will become ARABIYUN MUBEEN GHAIRA ZE AWAJ”(easy to understand).  
Please differentiate between the BOOK WRITTEN IN ARABIC LANGUAGE( which normally being spoken in Arabic countries) and THE QURAN AL ARABIYUN MUBEEN.  
Although, Arabic language is very enriched with vocabulary, but quran used limited words with vast meanings(would be chosen as per context of the subject)  
So the essential requirements to select/chose the appropriate meanings of the words from the Arabic Dictionary are as following.  
1) The context of the verse.  
2) The core message of the Quran( ie to protect the human right and to purify the sef)  
3) The rattal al Quran.  
4) The process of TASREEF AL AYAAT.  
Kindly go through it again, hope every query will be crystal clear.  
“Mubeen Arabic is not a reference to the language, but to the content which is conveyed in a clear and intelligent way  
It is the way the message is compiled, expressed and conveyed that is Arabic. It’s written in a self-explanatory way so it’s easy to understand and sense, that’s why it’s Arabic.  
 
Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona 41:3  
 
A Book, whereof the verses Are explained in detail; — A Qur-ān in Arabic, for people who understand” (nargis)  
 

Comments by: moazzam On 18 June 2011
UmeAimon! Regards.  
UmeAimon! So you are saying this on the basis of human discovery and NOT as per QURAN!!!!  
Moazzam! Believing in quran as a divine book should be on the basis of human analysis, not on blind faith of quran.And mind it! This is the message of Quran  
UmeAimon! Let me rephrase You are actually understanding QURAN on the basis of human discovry/ies, am I right???  
Moazzam! Yes human discovery in the universe and in the quran as well.  
 

Comments by: pervez On 18 June 2011Report Abuse
Moazzam! Yes human discovery in the universe and in the quran as well.  
 
Dear brother Moazzam, Is Quran human discovery or word of Allah?  
 
I have read Allama Niaz Fateh Puri, who believed that Quran is not word of Allah.  
 
 
Dear brother , I always respected you for your gentlemanly conduct irrespective of my differences.  

Comments by: Nargis On 18 June 2011Report Abuse
Wahy or Quran word of Allah discussed here, http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1006 .  
 
 
Brother Dawood  
 
I don’t know why the author choses these words. However like brother moazzam said, the context and the use other places will help to define the meaning. As I can see, mout describes a HUMAN CONDITION, it illustrates his mental state, do you have another word that can do the same?

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 18 June 2011Report Abuse
Suppose you have a book and the author of that book claims that this book is distinct/clear, etc. and is meant for all humans, including every top-, mid-, and low-level intellectual. However when a top-level intellectual (like yourself) reads it tells me (a low-level intellectual) that a particular word means different things at different places.  
 
Top level intellectual like me hahaha, yeh that’s me man yooo  
 
I am far from “top-intellectual”, but thank you for your kind words.  
 
Once upon a time in earh, I failed in math and physics at school. Normally girls fail in those subjects. But when the counselor told me to give up, while she eagerly encouraged the white girls in our class to continue next year with the same subjects and give it one more shot, I was provoked and applied next year once more and took the toughest subjects in math and physics.  
 
I had to sacrifice chitchat with friends; I sat in the school library in my breaks and was studying like hell.  
 
All my life I heard girls can’t understand math and physics, that’s only meant for boys. I actually believed in it and didn’t get good marks in math all my life. But when my school counselor humiliated me in front of the whole school but gave the opposite message to the white girls, I applied next year to annoy her and make a change...  
 
When the year ended, I was the only girl and the second person in the class with top marks in math and physics.  
 
Then I went to my counselor, and said, Thank you for your racism...  
 
Moral of this story is, the books were educational, scholastic, instructive and well explained, but I had to work really hard to understand what was said in them. The books demanded me to work hard and make an effort in order to share its message with me.  
 
They wouldn’t change no matter if I imagined 4 plus 4 to be 2….  
 
The sun and the moon won’t guide us if we close our eyes.  
 
Oh, and if i gave up after the first year and didnt continue learning or accepted the situation and used it to shape my roads which would lead to further stagnation, i wouldnt be NAKAAM or achieve NAKAAMI, i would have achieved DEATH and be DEAD.  
 
And my kamini counselor couldn’t qatl me hahaha, nice try though  
 
Both ways are subject of QAWANEEN QUDRAT, my choice would form the result of my mental state and achievements later on, thats the law of nature, because its same for everyone.  
 
Again they are told in the Quran as command of Allah, as mumlikat khudada is but a depiction of the original one in the nature, which is desired to be established....
 

Comments by: naeem sheikh On 18 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Aastana Members ! THE LOFTY THOUGHTS AND LOUD SOUNDS  
 
1) MOAZZAM! To understand the message of Alkitab we have to focus at ‘TASREEF AL AYAAT” and “RATTIL AL QURANA TARTEELA” if we adopt these ways then this book will become ARABIYUN MUBEEN GHAIRA ZE AWAJ”(easy to understand).  
Please differentiate between the BOOK WRITTEN IN ARABIC LANGUAGE( which normally being spoken in Arabic countries) and THE QURAN AL ARABIYUN MUBEEN.  
Although, Arabic language is very enriched with vocabulary, but quran used limited words with vast meanings(would be chosen as per context of the subject)  
So the essential requirements to select/chose the appropriate meanings of the words from the Arabic Dictionary are as following.  
1) The context of the verse.  
2) The core message of the Quran( ie to protect the human right and to purify the sef)  
3) The rattal al Quran.  
4) The process of TASREEF AL AYAAT.  
 
2) NARGIS! “Mubeen Arabic is not a reference to the language, but to the content which is conveyed in a clear and intelligent way  
It is the way the message is compiled, expressed and conveyed that is Arabic. It’s written in a self-explanatory way so it’s easy to understand and sense, that’s why it’s Arabic.  
 
Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona 41:3  
 
A Book, whereof the verses Are explained in detail; — A Qur-ān in Arabic, for people who understand”  
 
 
3) AURANGZAIB! The difference started from Sir Syed and his Company of Scholar friends, say, about 150 years ago. From that time to date, scholars have been curtailing the element of myth from Quranic interpretations and infusing the element of Rationality and Logic into the meanings.  
 
Earlier meanings were based on literal word to word translations. Modern scholars maintain that this style of interpretation is not regarded as authentic. It changes the whole paradigm of Divine Guidance. They are trying to derive idiomatic, symbolic and often metaphoric meanings and they believe that Quran being a piece of highly classical literature can only be interpreted in a high literary style.  

Comments by: pervez On 19 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear brother Moazzam,  
 
Thoughts , consciousness is supposed to be developing, progressive and evolving because otherwise  
it is stagnation.If you stand on a bridge you can see all type of vehicles passing over it. It exactly happens in  
our minds. Thoughts come and pass away. Some of them you like become part of your memory and  
contribute/update your convictions and keep improving our perception with new discoveries and new ideas.  
Discussions are a process of learning with flexible approach , so everything shouldn't be taken as final. That  
is real advancement.We should keep reviewing our thinking and changing our stances if found wrong during  
or after discussions. Ego shouldn't be involved. We should discuss same topics again and again if necessary.  
You will agree with me these are not simple topics they will come up again and again with new dimensions, as  
your translation progress further. All on the forum should be each others teachers and students as well. That  
should be the justified approach. It is wrong to reject each other on matters of disagreements. Reasons  
appealing for one person may not appeal to others. Mutual respect is necessary for healthy learning.  
 
REGARDS

Comments by: UmeAimon On 19 June 2011Report Abuse
Salam brother Moazam,  
 
UmeAimon! Let me rephrase You are actually understanding QURAN on the basis of human discovry/ies, am I right???  
Moazzam! Yes human discovery in the universe and in the quran as well.  
 
So when you are understanding Quran as per human discoveries...how sure you are that whatever you have discovered is cent percent? Like someone on the forum perhaps bro Bilal also pointed out... a person who was born 4 centuries ago would perceive it differently then!!  
PLUS how come then when someone tries to prove something from new scientific research or discovery, is shunned?  
Is it because we have set our mind to certain level of "DISCOVERIES" and would like to make every ayat mean that way?even when it makes no sense!?  
 
 
UmeAimon

Comments by: moazzam On 19 June 2011
Dear Sister UmeAimon! Regards.  
 
UmeAimon! Let me rephrase You are actually understanding QURAN on the basis of human discovry/ies, am I right???  
Moazzam! Yes human discovery in the universe and in the quran as well.  
 
UmeAimon! So when you understand Quran as per human discoveries...how sure you are that whatever you have discovered is cent percent?  
Moazzam! The procedure to take guidance from Alkitab has also been described in it.That is by Tasreef Al Ayat, ratal(wa rattil al Qurana tartila) and by looking into the universe as well (inna fi khalqi assamawat wal arz wakhtila fillail wannahar la ayatun le ulil albab)  
 
UmeAimon! A person who was born 4 centuries ago would perceive it differently then!!  
Moazzam! Therefore, prophet hood will be continued, so as to address the new issues/challenges with new solutions in new era. Remember the basic principles/values (eternal) never change.  
Keep in view the societies constitutional changes in the process of legislations according to new socio economics and other scientific developments of the time..  
UmeAimon! How come then when someone tries to prove something from new scientific research or discovery, is shunned?  
Moazzam! Yes  
UmeAimon! Is it because we have set our mind to certain level of "DISCOVERIES" and would like to make every ayat mean that way?  
Moazzam! Yes, other than AYAT AL MUHKAMAT(umm alkitab)  
UmeAimon! Even when it makes no sense!?  
Moazzam! It makes sense if you followed the above said.  
 

Comments by: abdullahbashoeb On 20 June 2011
Respected Br Dr Qamar Zaman.  
 
Can you please give your understanding of this verse. 17: 16  
 
وَإِذَا أَرَدْنَا أَن نُّهْلِكَ قَرْيَةً أَمَرْنَا مُتْرَفِيهَا فَفَسَقُواْ فِيهَا فَحَقَّ عَلَيْهَا الْقَوْلُ فَدَمَّرْنَاهَا تَدْمِيرًا  
 
Salam  

Comments by: dawood On 20 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Brs. and Srs., SA:  
 
Sister UmeAimon, I would refer to your following post to add two cents of mine on this: " ...Is it because we have set our mind to certain level of "DISCOVERIES" and would like to make every ayat mean that way?even when it makes no sense!?(UmeAimon)."  
When people come to certain conclusions( right or wrong is immaterial), then they start looking at things with reference to those conclusions. They see things/situations/contexts in accordance with their established conclusions,THE WAY THINGS OUGHT TO BE, NOT THE WAY THEY ARE. I am sure educational psychology must have a term for such a condition. Not knowing the exact term to describe such a condition, I just call this an intellectual blind spot. Reading various threads back and forth and individual responses contained within those threads, my humble opinion is that we must carefully examine ourselves so as not to posses intellectual blind spots. This is not meant to insult anyone's intelligence.

Comments by: moazzam On 21 June 2011
Dear Dawood !I appreciate an intellectual advice to intellectuals, being a meagre student of Quran, please,point out the intellectual blind spot if may seen, along with possible corrections in the light of Quran, or produce the better definition/sense/translation/ interpretation, than already produced by any intellectual/student.Being one of you a blog Member i am putting my best efforts to depict up to my level. I humbly request you(The honorable member of Aastana) preen out my efforts, as well as, to make yourself pregnant for a such luminous land mark which should be at least a light tower for Aastana.  
REMEMBER ,WE ARE HERE TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER. THANKS

Comments by: UmeAimon On 21 June 2011Report Abuse
Salam,  
 
Thank you brother Dawood. Perhaps there is a psychological term for it but you know this is not unsual and its very easy to get caught in this kind of behaviour without even realising it. Perhaps the kind of complacency or whatever... anyway it posseses real threat as it truley hinders the process of learning, thats for sure, no matter how much a person claim to be learning.  
 
Brothe Moazzam,  
UmeAimon! How come then when someone tries to prove something from new scientific research or discovery, is shunned?  
Moazzam! Yes  
 
I think you did not understand what I said.  
I meant. Why is then, when someone tries to prove something from new scientific research or discovery, is shunned, when rest of our understanding ( of even basic values) is based on our discoveries??  
 
UmeAimon

Comments by: aurangzaib On 21 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Brother Dawood, Sis Ume Aimon,  
 
I have not been in touch due to loads of other work. But the "psychological term" you both dear ones are looking for is called "wishful thinking" ; and it applies upon our thinking when we have priorly decided about the aim/target/ideology of a Doctrine.  
 
The same "wishful thinking" is being applied upon Quran by our very dear Brother Moazzam. Over and above that, he has not been able to offer satisfactory, easy-to-understand, running translations of Verses that he is constantly modifying the meanings of from the wide scope of lexical definitions. He has not been able to offer satisfactory answers to questions that arise from his particular doctrine.  
 
I have already received three complaints from average level learners of Aastana that Brother Moazzam's newer and novel meanings and some of his inputs have carried them away from the Quranic understanding. I mean no criticism of Brother Moazzam, but as you may see from my drawing back, I too cannot follow his high and speedy flying. I am expressing myself honestly and I mean no offence to anyone.  
 
Unlike him, when my teacher Dr. Qamar presents a discovery, he is fully capable to explain it to the understanding of a beginner as well as of an expert.  
 
If Brother Moazzam has really discovered some revolutionary concepts of Quran, I would request him to please let us understand them slowly and methodically. To act like a teacher in this respect will be most suitable. Just like Dr. Sahib does. He should try to make his stuff easy for us and for his many other readers.  
 
Or he might excuse us and let us all wait for the time when Dr. Sahib reaches those texts in his course of translations and explains in his usual befitting style. I think Aastana's pages must remain legible and intelligible, avoiding the style of hard core philosophy.  
 
The theories being presented on Aastana pages right now are a diversion towards pure Materialism. They are trying their best to exclude the spiritual aspect of Quran, exemplary personalities of Rusools and the concept of God, the Creator, as well as the individual human being and his rewards and punishments according to his evolution in his Conscious stage during his physical life, in his animal organism. I think all the Quranic virtues and values that Quran so forcefully propagates, are spiritual in their essence and relate to the conscious state of human mind. So, to emphasize only its material aspect is tantamount to depriving it of its soul.  
 
"Al-Kitab", "beyond Time and Space", "Attributes, not names", and "Generic Templates" have been the terms that up till now have garbled the total sense of Quranic understanding. The new term I just noted being misused in the same old fashion is "Rattil al-Quran". I shall watch to see how far they stretch this term with their word play beyond the boundaries of human comprehension.  
 
Sis UmeAimon's question is very relevant to me as I have recently proved the Existence of Super Absolute Consciousness, i.e. the Creator, in an article in 15 instalments, in purely scientific perspective in consonance with modern knowledge and discoveries. And I am willing to prove the Hereafter fully in identical style; and I am being asked to do that via my personal mail. Nevertheless, they don't have an answer to Sis' Question, I am sure.  
 
I apologize if some of my words may seem hurting. I absolutely don't mean that.  

Comments by: moazzam On 21 June 2011
Dear Aastana members! Salam wa Rahmah.  
Umaimon! Who made this "qanoon e Qudrat" of "not" living again. Is it something that was said in Quran? or something that humans discovered or found out??  
 
Moazzam! Allah made and we discovered.  
UmeAimon! So you are saying this on the basis of human discovery and NOT as per QURAN!!!!  
Moazzam! Believing in quran as a divine book should be on the basis of human analysis, not on blind faith of quran.And mind it! This is the message of Quran  
UmeAimon! Let me rephrase You are actually understanding QURAN on the basis of human discovry/ies, am I right???  
Moazzam! Yes human discovery in the universe and in the quran as well.  
 
Dawood!  
When people come to certain conclusions( right or wrong is immaterial), then they start looking at things with reference to those conclusions. They see things/situations/contexts in accordance with their established conclusions,THE WAY THINGS OUGHT TO BE, NOT THE WAY THEY ARE. I am sure educational psychology must have a term for such a condition, I just call this an intellectual blind spot.  
 
Moazzam! Dear Dawood !I appreciate an intellectual advice to intellectuals, being a meagre student of Quran, please,point out the intellectual blind spot if may seen, along with possible corrections in the light of Quran, or produce the better definition/sense/translation/ interpretation, than already produced by any intellectual/student.Being one of you a blog Member i am putting my best efforts to depict up to my level. I humbly request you(The honorable member of Aastana) preen out my efforts, as well as, to make yourself pregnant for a such luminous land mark which should be at least a light tower for Aastana.  
REMEMBER ,WE ARE HERE TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER. THANKS  
 
Aurangzaib! The same "wishful thinking" is being applied upon Quran by our very dear Brother Moazzam. Over and above that, he has not been able to offer satisfactory, easy-to-understand, running translations of Verses that he is constantly modifying the meanings of from the wide scope of lexical definitions. He has not been able to offer satisfactory answers to questions that arise from his particular doctrine. I have already received three complaints from average level learners of Aastana that Brother Moazzam's newer and novel meanings and some of his inputs have carried them away from the Quranic understanding  
 
.  
WHY COMPLAINT AND OBJECTIONS, WHY NOT QURAN BASED CORRECTIONS ??????  
BROTHER AURANGZAIB PLEASE RECALL YOUR PREVIOUS APPROUCH  
Aurangzaib! Earlier meanings were based on literal word to word translations. Modern scholars maintain that this style of interpretation is not regarded as authentic. It changes the whole paradigm of Divine Guidance. They are trying to derive idiomatic, symbolic and often metaphoric meanings and they believe that Quran being a piece of highly classical literature can only be interpreted in a high literary style  
 
 

Comments by: Mubashir Syed On 21 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Sis UmeAimon, need your help in understanding one of your concerns.....  
 
UmeAimon : PLUS how come then when someone tries to prove something from new scientific research or discovery, is shunned?  
 
Mubashir : Please give an exmaple for your above concern so as to get a clear picture and further discussion. And if current advance scientific research CAN make us understand something, I wonder what could have been understanding of those verses for Nabi and Sahaba without these current discoveries.  
 
With no intension to offend or defend.........  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.

Comments by: dawood On 21 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Br. Mubashir: Although your question is directed at sister UmeAimon, I take the liberty to add my two cents.  
 
First, observe that no book can be written in a short period of time, and this should certainly be true for the book, Alquran. Lets assume that first one or two suras are revealed and written. Can the general principle of Tasreef-e-Ayat etc. be completely and comprehensively applied at that stage? Can we show what they might have understood from those verses and terminologies which were depended on other suras yet not revealed for their true meanings to be inferred? Furthermore, no one can show or prove it what they might have understood or not understood even if they had the entire Quran written in one go, in one day. Can anyone show what their understanding was, science or no science?  
 
Secondly, if a particular generation can completely and unambigously understands something in a given socio-political and socio-economic environment, it is done. Would that understanding be applicable in vastly different environments? My humble understanding is NO. Any idea, any understanding can only remain valid as long as it keeps evolving with the time and place (i.e. environment). Today's Muslims are stubbornly married to the understanding of their predecessors, with the results painfully obvious to all of us. This also points me in an another direction, namely, the terminologies in the Quran are left open and suggestive to contain varied meanings such that every generation can infer the GUIDANCE as per its existing socio-economic and socio-political environment. It is therefore a moot point to refer to old generations and their understanding which cannot even be proven as to what it was, science or no science. I am not answering for sister UmeAimon.

Comments by: moazzam On 22 June 2011
Dear Brother Dawood,Mubashir !Regards,  
Dawood! First, observe that no book can be written in a short period of time, and this should certainly be true for the book, Alquran. Lets assume that first one or two suras are revealed and written. Can the general principle of Tasreef-e-Ayat etc. be completely and comprehensively applied at that stage? Can we show what they might have understood from those verses and terminologies which were depended on other suras yet not revealed for their true meanings to be inferred? Furthermore, no one can show or prove it what they might have understood or not understood even if they had the entire Quran written in one go, in one day. Can anyone show what their understanding was, science or no science?  
Moazzam!Do not rely on history( it is wrong that Quran completed in 23 years) Alkitab is beyond time and apace, Nuzool Alkitab (at Rasool of the time in any era) means understanding /inference developed at any matter under question,described in Alkitab.  
 
Dawood! Secondly, if a particular generation can completely and unambiguously understand something in a given socio-political and socio-economic environment, it is done. Would that understanding be applicable in vastly different environments? My humble understanding is NO. Any idea, any understanding can only remain valid as long as it keeps evolving with the time and place (i.e. environment).  
Moazzam! Yes you are right, therefore the continuation of Rasool has been described in Alkitab to guide in new challenges of the era. As the whole universe is continuously changing its state, it is also obvious, that, the needs and requirements of man kind are tremendous being changed, see the verse 55/29 يَسْأَلُهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ كُلَّ يَوْمٍ هُوَ فِي شَأْنٍ .So the Rasool of the time will guide his nation while pondering into Alkitab and the universal laws of nature as well.  
The appropriate solution to the existing /current situation would be revealed in the mind of Rasool are called nuzool/ wahy.  
The verse 55/29 has been wrongly translated by orthodox, that there is eventual change in Allah’s self, the هُوَ in this verse MUST be related to the Universe, not to Allah.  
Dawood! Today's Muslims are stubbornly married to the understanding of their predecessors, with the results painfully obvious to all of us. This also points me in an another direction, namely, the terminologies in the Quran are left open and suggestive to contain varied meanings such that every generation can infer the GUIDANCE as per its existing socio-economic and socio-political environment. It is therefore a moot point to refer to old generations and their understanding which cannot even be proven as to what it was, science.  
Moazzam! No, the terminologies could never be changed, rather their implementation does change in a changed(socio-economic/political environment) era.  

Comments by: William On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear aurangzaib,  
 
You should seriously think about writing a retraction!  
 
aurangzaib: I have not been in touch due to loads of other work. But the "psychological term" you both dear ones are looking for is called "wishful thinking" ; and it applies upon our thinking when we have priorly decided about the aim/target/ideology of a Doctrine.  
 
William: This is very true; you have displayed a negative cognitive bias when subjected to explanations of Quranic content. Instead of providing a line of reasoning (with supporting evidence) to back up your rebuttal, you make pessimistic statements to lower the credibility of the works submitted, so to ensure your status and reputation remain intact.  
 
aurangzaib: The same "wishful thinking" is being applied upon Quran by our very dear Brother Moazzam. Over and above that, he has not been able to offer satisfactory, easy-to-understand, running translations of Verses that he is constantly modifying the meanings of from the wide scope of lexical definitions. He has not been able to offer satisfactory answers to questions that arise from his particular doctrine.  
 
William: I completely disagree! Moazzam has continuously provided “easy-to-understand” explanations, and has provided supporting evidence to back up his assertions. The “lexical definitions” provided by Moazzam, are fully explained and the sources as to where he ascertained such information are provided.  
 
aurangzaib: I have already received three complaints from average level learners of Aastana that Brother Moazzam's newer and novel meanings and some of his inputs have carried them away from the Quranic understanding. I mean no criticism of Brother Moazzam, but as you may see from my drawing back, I too cannot follow his high and speedy flying. I am expressing myself honestly and I mean no offence to anyone.  
 
William: To say the above statement is not appropriate, ethical, or does not conform to a general understanding of propriety, is an understatement indeed. I am completely astonished, that a well-renowned, respected individual would behave in such a manner! Complaints should be dealt with accordingly, and not used to discredit a fellow executive member. Such “cheap shots” are for the low class individuals of society, who lack confidence and have no self-esteem. If you have any internal issues, then the decent and obvious thing to do is to discuss it behind closed doors, so to ensure not to embarrass yourselves, the forum members, or damage the image that has become of Aastana. Having said that, if you have issues and are unable to grasp the concepts and reasoning put forth, why should Moazzam be held liable?  
 
aurangzaib: Unlike him, when my teacher Dr. Qamar presents a discovery, he is fully capable to explain it to the understanding of a beginner as well as of an expert.  
 
William: Dr Qamar Zaman is our teacher too, thank you! On many occasions, Dr Qamar has praised Moazzam for his brilliance. So why do you object?  
 
aurangzaib: If Brother Moazzam has really discovered some revolutionary concepts of Quran, I would request him to please let us understand them slowly and methodically. To act like a teacher in this respect will be most suitable. Just like Dr. Sahib does. He should try to make his stuff easy for us and for his many other readers.  
 
William: If you would like to deliberate over and share your techniques / methods of pedagogy with Maozzam, then you should email him!  
 
aurangzaib: Or he might excuse us and let us all wait for the time when Dr. Sahib reaches those texts in his course of translations and explains in his usual befitting style. I think Aastana's pages must remain legible and intelligible, avoiding the style of hard core philosophy.  
 
William: This is an open forum where members have the ability to discuss and debate different topics and subjects. There is no set limit to participation within the forum or the amount of posts generated. All members have the right to discuss whatever he / she likes, as long as it is Quranic content that is being discussed. Members ask questions, and Moazzam provides explanations, with supporting evidence (along with sources). Moazzam is therefore fulfilling his role as executive member! Can you please explain what you mean by “the style of hard core philosophy” ?  
 
aurangzaib: The theories being presented on Aastana pages right now are a diversion towards pure Materialism. They are trying their best to exclude the spiritual aspect of Quran, exemplary personalities of Rusools and the concept of God, the Creator, as well as the individual human being and his rewards and punishments according to his evolution in his Conscious stage during his physical life, in his animal organism. I think all the Quranic virtues and values that Quran so forcefully propagates, are spiritual in their essence and relate to the conscious state of human mind. So, to emphasize only its material aspect is tantamount to depriving it of its soul.  
 
William: Irrespective of your beliefs, opinions, views and understanding, if certain concepts are not encapsulated within the Quran, then they cannot be labelled “Quranic”. Beliefs and personal ideals held by individuals have no bearing on the actual content of the Quran. It is irrelevant that you perceive Quranic values as being “spiritual in their essence and relate to the conscious state of human mind”, if such details are not contained in the Quran, they cannot be associated with “Islam”.  
 
aurangzaib: "Al-Kitab", "beyond Time and Space", "Attributes, not names", and "Generic Templates" have been the terms that up till now have garbled the total sense of Quranic understanding. The new term I just noted being misused in the same old fashion is "Rattil al-Quran". I shall watch to see how far they stretch this term with their word play beyond the boundaries of human comprehension.  
 
William: Your comprehension of such terms does not have an impact on the terms! However, I’ll take this opportunity to point out that certain terms such as “Generic Templates” are used to describe how the Quran can be used! For instance, "Generic template", in the context suggested, is ultimately a reference to scenarios or situations in which knowledge can be used and applied to our daily lives. Therefore, certain roles and examples can be adopted by individuals in order to solve problematic situations. Yet you are unable to grasp such a concept, due to your own inabilities! Stop playing the martyr who is here to save us from the big bad wolf!  
 
aurangzaib: Sis UmeAimon's question is very relevant to me as I have recently proved the Existence of Super Absolute Consciousness, i.e. the Creator, in an article in 15 instalments, in purely scientific perspective in consonance with modern knowledge and discoveries. And I am willing to prove the Hereafter fully in identical style; and I am being asked to do that via my personal mail. Nevertheless, they don't have an answer to Sis' Question, I am sure.  
 
William: Congratulations! Nevertheless, can you prove that the Quran encompasses such details?  
 
aurangzaib: I apologize if some of my words may seem hurting. I absolutely don't mean that.  
 
William: Apology accepted!  

Comments by: UmeAimon On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
Salam,  
 
Brother Mubashir, please read previous posts. I pointed out a contradiction... and still waiting for brother Moazzams reply/ies to my first and later queries.  
Please don't mind , but I would like to keep it that simple for now;  
That I'm still waiting for the answers!  
 
UmeAimon

Comments by: Nargis On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
Aurungzeb:-I have not been in touch due to loads of other work. But the "psychological term" you both dear ones are looking for is called "wishful thinking”; and it applies upon our thinking when we have priory decided about the aim/target/ideology of a Doctrine.  
 
this equally applies to your "wishful thinking" about life after death.  
 
Aurungzeb:-He has not been able to offer satisfactory answers to questions that arise from his particular doctrine.  
 
It looks like it’s YOU yourself who is not satisfied with the answers Moazzam provided. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE is dissatisfied with Moazzam's answers and proofs. To me this is use of a "manipulative language" where you are trying to speak for everyone else when you should only speak for yourself-  
 
Aurungzeb: - I have already received three complaints from average level learners of Aastana that Brother Moazzam's newer and novel meanings and some of his inputs have carried them away from the Quraniq understanding  
 
That is because THEY ARE NOT READY for the information that Moazzam has to offer. Moazzam should not feel obliged to slow down or water down his knowledge and teachings based upon the limited intellects of "Three Average Level Learners". Those who are not afraid of the truth and have the means and discipline to verify what Moazzam teaches will NOT be carried away from the Quraniq understanding. All others WILL be carried away. The blame does not go to Moazzam.  
 
Unlike him, when my teacher Dr. Qamar presents a discovery, he is fully capable to explain it to the understanding of a beginner as well as of an expert.  
 
PEOPLE have concretely thanked and praised Moazzam for his efforts and for explaining things succinctly enough for them to grasp the concepts than the mere "handful" of people who supposedly "complain". And doctor uncle himself praised moazzam for his efforts. He can write whatever he likes; this forum is open for everyone to discuss their thoughts and reflections in relation to the Quran. Why do you want to enforce restrictions like other forums? And it’s funny that these three people contacted YOU, the executive member who wrote longest posts against Moazzam’s discoveries and disagree mostly  
 
Aurungzaib:-He should try to make his stuff easy for us and for his many other readers.  
 
So far he has made it easy enough that sincere students are able to understand. This has been demonstrated numerous times on the blog.  
 
aurungzaib:-Or he might excuse "US" and let us all wait for the time when Dr. Sahib reaches those texts in his course of translations and explains in his usual befitting style.  
 
Dear brother, WHO is this "US” you speak of? Is it YOU and your three friends? Why don’t they post their “corrections” on the blog? And what about us, me, Junaid, William, Damon, Mubashir, Maniza and others who ask Moazzam questions and find his replies helpful... We, who are active on the blog and want to learn, what about us? We learn from Moazzam and we are happy with him, we don’t want him to “excuse us” by not writing anything, do our “wants” not matter? Even Dr Uncle has openly praised moazzam. Moazzam have referred to ayas all the time! To be honest brother, it is you who uses concepts outside of the Quran. It is you who states that the Quran is given to us by history, it is YOU who tries to prove the Quran to be divine through history, it is you who has the “wishful thinking” of Quran being spiritual and losing its “soul” as discussed here… Where in the Quran are these words used to describe the Quran at all? What do you mean by these words?  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1366#COM6992  
 
Aurungzeb: - I think Astana’s pages must remain legible and intelligible, avoiding the style of hard core philosophy.  
 
The opposite of legible and intelligible are illegible and unintelligible, are you implying that is what Moazzam's teachings are... illegible and unintelligible? Moazzam should not be obliged to water down his teachings and his knowledge for anyone, this is a forum that invites open discussions and debates, and there should be no restrictions on different methods used by members. So far moazzam is the only one who is active executive members, while some are opposing him even though they are terribly busy and don’t have time to come here. But they have time to complain  
 
Aurungzeb:-I THINK all the Quraniq virtues and values that Quran so forcefully propagates, are spiritual in their essence and relate to the conscious state of human mind. So, to emphasize only its material aspect is tantamount to depriving it of its soul.  
 
The key words are, “YOU THINK"...YOU...THINK. So what YOU THINK is YOUR VIEW/OPINION, unless you will provide us with Quraniq references to support your claim?  
 
"Al-Kitab", "beyond Time and Space", "Attributes, not names", and "Generic Templates" have been the terms that up till now have garbled the total sense of Quraniq understanding  
 
No, they have garbled YOUR SENSE of Quraniq Understanding. These thoughts are going against your understanding and that’s why you want Moazzam not to write it anymore. Didn’t we “garble” the sense of Namaz, soum, Hajj long time ago? Why would we stop now and look at every aya in the Quran, the Quran does not only consist of soum hajj salaat, it’s more in it.  
 
Sis UmeAimon's question is very relevant to me as I have recently proved the Existence of Super Absolute Consciousness, i.e. the Creator, in an article in 15 installments, in purely scientific perspective in consonance with modern knowledge and discoveries  
 
you have PROVED the existence of Super Absolute Conscious to whom?  
 
And I am willing to prove the Hereafter fully in identical style  
 
and here we go again, again with the hereafter thing... NOW WHO is engaging in "wishful thinking"? How in the world can you or anybody else PROVE the hereafter without a dead person coming back to life after years of being dead and explaining all the details of the hereafter to you? That would be the only logical proof about what happens after death other than YOU being dead and seeing it with your own eyes. You're not dead yet, so you HAVE NO PROOF!!  
 
You’re a Quraniq person too, why didn’t you prove life after death through the Quran? And you insinuated others are using the "style of hardcore are philosophy"
 
 
And finally:-  
 
Aurungzeb: - Unlike him, when my teacher Dr. Qamar presents a discovery, he is fully capable to explain it to the understanding of a beginner as well as of an expert.  
If Brother Moazzam has really discovered some revolutionary concepts of Quran, I would request him to please let us understand them slowly and methodically. To act like a teacher in this respect will be most suitable. Just like Dr. Sahib does.  
 
He should try to make his stuff easy for us and for his many other readers.  
 
First thing that hit me, would you believe in the SAME things Moazzam are saying only if Dr Uncle said them?  
 
And if you don’t understand what moazzam is saying, how can you complain and ask him not to write anything in this matter? You admit you have difficulties in UNDERSTANDING what Moazzam is saying, and still you are taking the liberty to restrict Moazzam’s writing. I can’t see the logic, how can you reject something you don’t comprehend?
 
 
 

Comments by: dawood On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Br. Moazzam, SA:  
Moazzam!Do not rely on history( it is wrong that Quran completed in 23 years) Alkitab is beyond time and apace, Nuzool Alkitab (at Rasool of the time in any era) means understanding /inference developed at any matter under question,described in Alkitab.  
Dawood: Dear Br. I did not rely on history, though I understand well what you are referring to. We have a written book, commonly called AlQuran with us. It was written by someone at some point in the past. My understanding is that it is an impossibility to write such a book in one single sitting. It therefore must has been written within a period. It is entirely possible that the writer first wrote it and then announced it to other people. Reading the book, however, points me in the direction that the writer was announcing it as he was writing it. Thus my reference to using the Tasreef-ul-Ayat theory. Moreover, how do you justify that "..it is wrong that Quran completed in 23 years."?  
 
Moazzam! No, the terminologies could never be changed, rather their implementation does change in a changed(socio-economic/political environment) era.  
Dawood: I never suggested that terminologies would change. I only wrote " ...the terminologies in the Quran are left open and suggestive to contain varied meanings such that every generation can infer the GUIDANCE as per its existing socio-economic and socio-political environment." As an eaxmple, consider the "Human Rights" concept. It is rather a modern terminology which was not even talked about perhaps a few hundred years ago, but yet we find its support within the Quran and its TERMINOLOGIES. Otherwise there is no point for a writer to use a word or a phrase that contains multiple meanings, if the intent is to fix the meanings and the understanding once for all. I hope this makes sense.  
 
I may also point out that the term "beyond time and space" in my view cannot be used for any physical thing, and is certainly true for the book, Alquran. The Creator, the Originator of all things, commonly known Allah is the only entity that could be referred as beyond time and space.

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
1)I may also point out that the term "beyond time and space" in my view cannot be used for any physical thing, and is certainly True for the book, Alquran. The Creator, the Originator of all things, commonly known Allah is the only entity that could be referred as beyond time and space.  
 
2) My understanding is that it is an impossibility to write such a book in one single sitting. It therefore must has been written within a period. It is entirely possible that the writer first wrote it and then announced it to other people. Reading the book, however, points me in the direction that the writer was announcing it as he was writing it. Thus my reference to using the Tasreef-ul-Ayat theory. Moreover, how do you justify that "..it is wrong that Quran completed in 23 years."?  
 
So you don’t think the term can't be used for the CONTENT, the COMMANDs, the MESSAGE, the GUIDANCE of the book? When we say prophets’ uprightness and approaches are beyond time and space, do you think that’s a physical thing?  
 
If Allah as in the Creator is beyond time and space, can’t he be able to give us a MESSAGE, COMMANDS, GUIDANCE beyond time and space? Do you feel COMMANDS, MESSAGE, GUIDANCE is physcial things?  
 
The book's content,substance, matter, gist, subject is applicable to all times and it is not dependent on space or time to be useable or implemental, that’s what’s meant throughout the discussion and by "Al kitab being beyond time and space". hope you didnt think it is the physical book, the physical paper or physical prophets tht was meant to be beyond time and space?  
 
2) Let me quote dr uncle  
 
Human relations are from day one . These relations needs some kind of governance The best governance of relations are divine , given from day one when society started developing and a need for some rules and regulations appeared .  
 
As far as rules and regulations are concerned they are eternal and not moulded by change in space and time . So they are called absolute .  
 
But application changes with change in space and time .  
 
Quran is a book of Absolute values and the application of these values by all great prophets.  
 
By saying 23 years if you mean to say the values were given in 23 years then I beg to differ , because you can’t appoint even a clerk in a department without full knowledge of his responsibilities .Imagine a head of a department without knowledge of his responsibilities .  
 
So be sure that when Mohammad was appointed as prophet by the divine authority he had the excellent knowledge of all the rules and regulations of a socio-economic system of justice .  
 
But as far as the application of these values are concerned he applied them according to his culture , nature and reaction of his people, This must have taken a long period from invitation to establishing a welfare state . But one very important thing should be kept in mind ,  
 
The picture of that state is certainly different from a welfare state of the present time , because of the change in facilities available now . Those who adhere to the picture are taking us to 1400 years back , but those who are applying the divine values according to present situation with future in mind are very much ahead of us.
 
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=486  
 
Dr Uncle said :- http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1277  
 
Dear members ,  
 
I agree with Moazzam as Quran says in verse 13 of sura 42  
(شَرَعَ لَكُمْ مِنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ )  
 
“ He (Allâh) has ordained for You the same way of life( Deen ) which He ordained for Nûh (Noah), and that which we have inspired In You, and that which we ordained for Ibrahîm (Abraham), Mûsa (Moses?) and 'Iesa (Jesus) saying You should establish way of life (deen )and make no divisions In it (i.e. various sects ) Intolerable for the Mushrikûn ,It is that to which You call them."  
 
So basically the Book has always been the same . It was named or given a name by the prophet or its followers according to the usage of the BOOK or الکتاب .as explained by Moazzam .  
 
Another verse 29 of sura 50  
مَا يُبَدَّلُ الْقَوْلُ لَدَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا بِظَلامٍ لِلْعَبِيدِ (٢٩)  
"The orders never change from my side , because I am not cruel to those who follow my laws .”  
 
How Divine Authority can change his orders every now and then ? If it is so then how can he be علیم or خبیر etc .  
think of water being formed by the combination of two atoms of Hydrogen and one atom of oxygen today .and tomorrow the combination changes .  
 
if laws of nature do not change how can the laws of nature concerning human beings ?  
 
Dr Qamar Zaman  
 
 

Comments by: dawood On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Sister Nargis, SA:  
 
1. " Beyond time and space": My understanding about this term is that something that has no beginning and no end both in time and in space, meaning it extends to +/- infinity in both dimensions. The book (contents) was revealed to when humans emerged on this planet and were ready to receive or understand the message. Thus it has a definite beginning.  
 
2. There is no doubt about "human relations are from day one.." However rules and regulations and the ability to manage or govern those relations is altogether a different beast. It is not imaginable for me that the rules and regulations required to govern those relations descended in one go and the person was ready with a pen and a paper to pen them down in just one sitting. It takes time to conceive, organize, and then put them in a written form, i.e in the form of a book. Alquran is a book that contains those rules and regulations. It is a physical impossibility to think that it was compiled in one go, one sitting, etc.  
 
"Nargis: .... So be sure that when Mohammad was appointed as prophet by the divine authority he had the excellent knowledge of all the rules and regulations of a socio-economic system of justice .."  
Dawood: I am not sure if this could be inferred from the Quranic verses or not. Having said that, this comment leads me to ask you this: (i) are you suggesting that he compiled his knowledge of rules and regulations in the form of a book, now called Quran? or (ii) He already had a book, called Quran that contained all the rules and regulations he was familiar with? Which one of the possibilities are you talking about? Please don't tell me everything was in his head, he didn't need no written document.  
 
" Nargis: ... By saying 23 years if you mean to say the values were given in 23 years then I beg to differ , because you can’t appoint even a clerk in a department without full knowledge of his responsibilities .Imagine a head of a department without knowledge of his responsibilities."  
Dawood: First, I did not use the word 23 years. It was used by Br. Moazzam. Secondly, you are perhaps mixing two things here. Having knowledge of responsibilities is different than having capabilities to fulfill those responsibilities. It is the capabilities (developed or to be developed) that are important to discharge those responsibilities for any job. There is a term called “on the job training” to polish those capabilities. Anyway, having the above two is not sufficient to be applied in any organization. You need rules and regulations so that a certain standard is upheld while one exercises one's abilities to fulfill one's responsibilities. These are rules of the game, all players required to uphold. These cannot be formulated overnight, and would definitely need a written document so that all players can refer to these as and when needed. Thus formulating those rules and regulations and preparing a final document is accomplished over a period of time. I hope this makes sense.  
 
The above are my understanding vs. your understanding. You could be right, I could be wrong or any other combination. The bottom line is what ALQURAN says about all this? In which direction the verses may lead us to, we need to seek that direction.  

Comments by: Nargis On 22 June 2011Report Abuse
1. " Beyond time and space": My understanding about this term is that something that has no beginning and no end both in time and in space, meaning it extends to +/- infinity in both dimensions. The book (contents) was revealed to when humans emerged on this planet and were ready to receive or understand the message. Thus it has a definite beginning.  
 
then you haven’t understood what is meant when the term is used in this context. We say that the Quran, its guidance have always been here, AlKitab have been here since day one. When someone read and UNDERSTANDS the Quran, in any era, it means the Quran is being “NAZOOL” in his mind.  
 
It means it will ALWAYS be nazool whenever someone comprehends its message. It will reveal its message to the one who make an effort and understood it.  
 
When we say, “beyond time and space” It doesn’t mean we are talking about a certain date 50 000 BC 05.45 A.M sunny morning while the sky was still red bluish or something, and it fell down from heaven while God watched it and made sure it got in the right hands.  
 
We talk about its CONTENT, its MESSAGE, its MATTER which is applicable to any group of people independent of what clothes they are wearing, what time they are in, or what country they live in, have always been here.  
 
Commands in the Quran are NOT designed only for one group existing in 63.2 000 B.C or 1400 A.C. the beauty of the Quran is that its content is applicable, its commands are not violating any HUMAN RIGHTS which are the same from day one since people existed.  
 
Coldblooded Murder won’t ever be “nice”, helping the poor will always be a virtue, and so on.
 
 
2. There is no doubt about "human relations are from day one.." However rules and regulations and the ability to manage or govern those relations is altogether a different beast. It is not imaginable for me that the rules and regulations required to govern those relations descended in one go and the person was ready with a pen and a paper to pen them down in just one sitting. It takes time to conceive, organize, and then put them in a written form, i.e in the form of a book. Alquran is a book that contains those rules and regulations. It is a physical impossibility to think that it was compiled in one goes, one sitting, etc.  
 
It is impossible for you to think that. A Rusool can’t be a Rusool without a message, and it’s impossible that he is a Nabi head of state without knowing the rules he need to implement. We don’t know what time A.M or P.M he compiled the book, but the book is delivered to the people in a complete form.  
 
He got the message, and he wrote it down, If you really think that in year 572 the prophet told the people, chalo jee, I got this ayat from God, bismillah irahma niraheem,,,but next aya didn’t come yet so let’s wait and see if it continues. Then after a month or something, another surah fell down from earth, and he told people:  
 
Ohh happy news happy news, I got another part, shabash shabash listen to me,, this time I got something called Baqara from 30 .39, and hey, its talking about Adam and Malaika, let’s see what it is ,,,  
 
And that’s how it was done?  
 
The Quran also refer to something called hikmat, and if one uses that ability, one will see that a Rusool is Rusool because of risalat, and Nabi because of being Rusool, so he KNEW what he was talking about and compiled a complete book before he introduced it to the audience.  
 
The Quraniq message is coherent at all times.
 
 
Dawood: I am not sure if this could be inferred from the Quranic verses or not. Having said that, this comment leads me to ask you this: (i) are you suggesting that he compiled his knowledge of rules and regulations in the form of a book, now called Quran? or (ii) He already had a book, called Quran that contained all the rules and regulations he was familiar with? Which one of the possibilities are you talking about? Please don't tell me everything was in his head, he didn't need no written document.  
 
Please read the meaning of Nabi, Rusool, and other qualities and then you will get it.  
 
(I) Im suggesting that you read carefully on the blog when similar discussions have been discussed. Search for ALKITAB and you will see all the discussions where this is discussed. You can’t have missed those discussions, I know you have participated in many of them, so WHO do you think compiled a book of rules and regulations, do you think Gabriel did it and stepped by on planet earth at Ghare Hira?  
 
(II) AlKitab has always been here, WHEN someone understand it, observes it, comprehend it, it is NAZIL on his mind.  
 
(III) Please have a look at these link, and plz plz study them
 
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1006  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1277  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM6966  
 
Dawood: First, I did not use the word 23 years. It was used by Br. Moazzam. Secondly, you are perhaps mixing two things here. Having knowledge of responsibilities is different than having capabilities to fulfill those responsibilities. It is the capabilities (developed or to be developed) that are important to discharge those responsibilities for any job. There is a term called “on the job training” to polish those capabilities. Anyway, having the above two is not sufficient to be applied in any organization. You need rules and regulations so that a certain standard is upheld while one exercises one's abilities to fulfill one's responsibilities. These are rules of the game, all players required to uphold. These cannot be formulated overnight, and would definitely need a written document so that all players can refer to these as and when needed. Thus formulating those rules and regulations and preparing a final document is accomplished over a period of time. I hope this makes sense.  
 
First NO1 said you used the word, but you asked “how do you justify that ...it is wrong that Quran completed in 23 years.” Oops so you did use the word.  
 
Rusool is a messenger, and Nabi is the head of state, when he instigates the divine order. Can you tell how many days he used to implement the system, or how many hours it took him to get the message, or when he gave it to the society, did he have all of it or just some parts of it?  
 
Do you think he was the head of the Islamic state formed in the Quran, without knowing all of it?  
 
Wouldn’t a math teacher understand math before he became a teacher?  
 
I cant understand why the prophet would start the establishment of a state when he dont even have its constitution ready. Establishment of a state is at least the third or fourth passage, first he must understand the message, then he has to formulate it, then he must convey it to the public, and when people understand the message and become his supporters or helpers, they can start for the establishment of the state. so it is obvious that when Mohammad was appointed as prophet by the divine authority he had the excellent knowledge of all the rules and regulations of a socio-economic system of justice.  
 
 
 
The bottom line is what ALQURAN says about all this? In which direction the verses may lead us to, we need to seek that direction.  
 
You tell me, what did the Quran say about al Kitab, what did the Quran say about its method of tasreef al ayat and Rattal Al Qurana, what did the Quran say how the message was revealed, what did the Quran say about the prophets and their abilities, what did the Quran say about how long it took the prophet to understand the message, what did the Quran say about how he delivered it to people, did he give them some now and some then? I can’t see you have provided any Quraniq reference for your stands? Have i missed out your research through the Quran on alkitab, attributes and the timeline of the message? Can you share your thoughts on the ayas moazzam brother presented for attributes, AlKitab and other as mentioned above? Have you studied the ayas brother Moazzam referred to in his posts? Because I think I have missed out your valuable points and research about the ayas brother Moazzam refer to in every post. Please refresh my mind.  
 
Thank you
 
 

Comments by: moazzam On 23 June 2011
Dear Aastana Members!  
MASAL (GENERIC TEPMLATES)  
Allah taught(55/1) us “ALKITAB / QURAN/ ROOH ALQUDS” though pondering into it,so we seek guidance (nuzool/wahy/ conceiving understanding), the way Allah adopded to make people understand is by “MASAL(THE GENERIC TEMPLATE),See the verses 17/85-89, 39/27,30/58, 18/54.  
As I always use to mention that, ALKITAB is beyond time and space, all prophets has/had been using this AL-ROOH/AL-KITAB to guide their ummah in each era. The name of prophets and all characters used in Qases (stories) are the attributes being the generic templates (masal), which possess eternal guide message.  
The”nuzool/wahy” of this kitab means the understanding/inference/conceiving of ideas in the mind of truth seeker/prophet of the time.  
The source of Alkitab is ALLAH, how was it received first time by the MOST CONCIOUS PERSON (Having the attributes of Mohammad) We “DO NOT KNOW”.  
Because of declaration of ALLALH in verse 17/85.  
To comprehend the matter following are to be read .  
1) ALROOH = AMR ALLAH (ORDERS) =Quran =Message, DICTIONARY ALMUNJAD.  
2) Read the verse 42/52 where the term “ROOHANN” is clearly indicating the wahy (ALKITAB)  
3) See the context of the verses, ,2/87,2/253,4/171, 5/110, 40/15,58/22 to be more clarified about the ROOH = ALKITAB.  
 

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 23 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaamun Alaikum, Moazzam,  
 
Moazzam, instead of using the phrase—“generic templates”, which for many here, was/is confusing, isn’t it just easier to say—model, a term which everyone is familiar with? Why the insistence on generic template? Anyway, I’m still not certain, in the light of Al-Quran anyway, exactly what you mean by this phrase and I’m certainly not interested in wading through your many posts in an attempt to find out. So, here’s my thought, why don’t you, for argument sake, just refrain from using generic templates and use the term model? Make sense? The mark of a true intellectual is not the use of fancy words and clever phrases, which all to often only cause confusion, but rather to demystify terms and concepts so that anyone can easily grasp what is being presented. The anti-intellecual seeks to mystify, because he/she is ego driven and not taqwa driven. Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of being anti-intellectual.  
 
With that said, I would like to challenge your idea on generic templates from the following perspective. From reading Al-Quran I see one, perhaps two, models—The Messenger and Abraham.  
 
Allah says, in ayat 33:21, that in the Messenger you have an excellent example/model:  
 
33:21 Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the Latter day, and remembers Allah much.  
 
But Allah also says, in ayats 21:24 16:120, that Abraham was made Iman to the nations, and, for the Messenger to follow him as a model.  
 
2:124 And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.  
 
16:120 Surely Abraham was a model, obedient to Allah, upright, and he was not of the polytheists….16:123 Then We revealed to thee: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one; and he was not of the polytheists.  
 
So, are the generic templates…or just one model to be followed? I conclude that there is only one model to follow—The Messenger, because both the Messenger and Abraham only followed 6:106  
 
6:106 Follow that which is revealed to thee from thy Lord — there is no god but He; and turn away from the polytheists.  
 
Just to be clear, The Messenger, is not the Last Prophet as the example to follow, but the Message/Al-Quran, that is the model to be followed. One model, not many models.  
 
Looking forward to your reply.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: dr shahid On 24 June 2011
AoA dear members especially brother Mozzam  
this forum is meant for the open discussion about the understanding of different issues addressed by AL-Quran.Every body has the right to express his views/understandings/inferences of the different Quranic issues/topics/contents.but no body has the right to impose his understang on the other members.if someone has some different opinion regarding a prticular topic he should provide logic and supportive references only from Quran with clearcut sense of the verses within the arabic gramatic principles and lexicon, not the personal inferences.  
 
brother Moazzam has always made available the QURANIC refences in support of his undrestandings and the actual sense of the verses,he always provided the words used by the Quran and their meanings according to lexicon and sense of the verses within the gramatic principles,if some body wants to differ just put your understanding of the Quranic verses and the words according to lexicon and within gramatic principles.No personal arguments/comments/thoughts could be considered as conclusive

Comments by: dawood On 24 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear sister Nargis, SA: Thank you for your lengthy rebuttal. It gave me a little more insight into your mind as well as about the stuff we are talking about. I neither have time nor it would serve any purpose for me writing back and forth. I will therefore try to respond as to how a scholarly work maybe approached, along with some of the constraints that people like me have to contend with. This is neither a rebuttal to your posts, nor an attempt to belittle yours or anyone’s knowledge, rather it is an attempt to share with all my brothers and sisters where am I coming from. This is a long mail for which I apologize in advance, and promise not to post another message for at least a couple of weeks.  
 
My knowledge of Arabic language is next to none. I rely on translations (right or wrong, have no choice). When some translations don’t make sense to me I cannot say with certainty that the translation is wrong since I don’t understand the language myself. I then raise some questions from various angles and try to seek answers to those questions. Some questions may well be logical and good, while others could be the results of my own faulty thinking. My concepts and understanding for a particular topic are fluid, meaning these concepts/understanding would evolve and get refined as new information becomes available via those questions. Thus, I am a perpetual student searching for answers to my questions and queries with respect to the Book of Allah, and for that matter anything in life.  
 
I believe (I could be wrong) that all of us at this forum are truthfully seeking answers to our various questions pertaining to the book of Allah. Some of the participants may have already figured it out and they are here to teach us. A big THANKS to those brave souls. According to my understanding, true learning requires internalizing a particular concept(s)/understanding about any topic with special regards to alternative ideas/thoughts/concepts and carefully applying certain universal standards such as clarity, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, significance, etc. These are true for both writers and readers or learners. By reading various threads, I have the feelings that some of us are almost certain about certain concepts mentioned in the Quran. In other words, some of us are certain that they have truly picked the brain of the Writer of the Book. When I try to internalize those concepts, I hit a wall with some unanswered questions.  
 
I take a specific example to highlight my point. We have discussed the term “Alkitab” previously, most recently in Nargis’s June 22 posting in this thread. According to my view this term is not dealt with completely and comprehensively yet. On what basis do I say so? Here are some of my thoughts (not exhaustive). I will be glad to see anyone’s answers and replies.  
 
According to my understanding, the book called Alquran has two major aspects to it (it is true for any book): (i) Its physical shape, like XXXX number of verses, a particular language in which it is written, etc. (ii) It has a message. In the latter case, it has at least two major content areas, namely Ahkamaats (Orders, dos and donts) and examples. (there maybe others I have not thought about).  
 
1.Can someone provide some logical reasoning and show that the physical form in which this book is today was the same physical form in any other previous era, say an era in which people were writing on stones, walls, etc., and the writing script was not in words but symbols? Can someone show that yes indeed it contained the same XXXX number of verses in that era? So on and so forth. My understanding is that it is impossible to have the same physical form. The physical form of the book was according to the dictation and the constraints of every era. Therefore, I must exclude the physical aspect of the ALKITAB. This leaves me with the second choice, i.e. the message itself, the contents.  
 
2.It is the fundamental or universal principles that are unchanged since the dawn of the human civilization. What are those fundamental or universal principles? In my view, these are AHKAMAATS (orders, dos and donts). Rest everything is left to the people in any given era. The Creator’s unchanging law is “as you sow so shall you reap,” so to speak. Upholding or following these AHKAMAATS will bring blessings aka paradise on earth and the violations would result in miseries, aka hell on earth. The violators and their ends are provided in various examples to bring home the point that what may happen when you violate these AHKAMAATS. Examples can be changed from one type to another, one society to another society depending upon the level of the society, without altering the fundamental AHKAMAATS or sacrificing anything. Therefore, AHKAMAATs (ORDERS) are permanent, unchanging, and thus the only thing that the term ALKITAB maybe referring to in various verses that talk about the word or terminology Alkitab. 50:29 would now make sense at least to me. "The ORDERS never change from my side, because I am not cruel to those who follow my ORDERS.” My above understanding is informed by the following verses:  
 
3.“Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law (Taurah) and the Gospel (Injeel) Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding? (3:65).” As per my understanding, the first part of this verse is talking about the Ahlul kitab in general that can include any group(s) until today. The second part makes it clear that it is referring to two groups of people in particular, one having Taurah and the other Injeel. One may ask a question, if both groups had the same book ALKITAB, what is then the point of contention? If these both books are same ditto ALKITAB, why are the qualifiers of Taurah and Injeel needed? One can replace one with the other since their contents are same, and no one would notice the difference? Under this assumption, does the verse make any sense? The only possibility to reconcile this verse (and similar other verses) with ALKITAB is to consider that (i) ALkitab refers to unchanging ORDERS, AHKAMMATS, (ii) both Injeel and Taurah contain ditto ORDERS, and (iii) yet they are distinctly different based on other accounts, such as examples, etc. Thus, the need to identify these with their own names. This is an analogous situation with Quran today. If my above theory is to hold, then Orders and Commandments ought to be the same in TAURAH, INJEEL, and QURAN, yet other stuff could be different, thereby the source of dispute referred in 3:65. Although, I did not research this aspect myself, I have read that there are indeed some verses in previous books that are more or less ditto copy (in essence) of the Quranic verses? Those who are well versed in Quran, Old and New Testament may be able to substantiate this observation?  
 
4. “The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one believeth in Allah, His angels, His BOOKS, and His messengers. …(2:285).” What the phrase “BOOKS” is referring to in 2:285? Would it not be right to conclude that this reference is for respective books given to respective messengers in their respective eras? Yet, each one is also called “ALKITAB” because every book contains the same unchanging ORDERS and COMMANDMENTS?  
 
5.“It is He Who sent down to thee, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (Taurah) and the Gospel (Injeel) BEFORE THIS, as a guide to mankind. (3:3).” Why the BOOK, ALKITAB and its previous versions (if identical, ditto) being named differently, if they all are indeed the same, ditto copy of each other? Also, the ALKITAB confirms what went before it. If the same ALKITAB went before it what is the need to confirm it? For confirmation (TASDEEQ in Urdu) you need two copies, present and a previous version for comparison. Do we have a previous version exactly like Quran that we can compare with? Only parts that are perhaps comparable (in essence) are ORDERS and AHKAMAATS which may well be found more or less same in essence in previous versions like Taurah and Injeel? I will be glad to see someone throwing a light on this verse from a different angle.  
 
6.“And BEFORE THIS, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right. (46:12)”  
How this BOOK (ALQURAN) confirms the “previous book of Moses?” Do I have the previous BOOK of Moses to compare with this book and get a confirmation?  
 
Further, the term ALKITAB is replaced with the term “Book of Moses,” which went BEFORE THIS Book, Quran? Why call it a book of Moses? Shouldn’t this be the book of anyone since it is same, ditto? Can I call this book, Quran as the book of Moses? If I do so, would 46:12 allow that to be the right inference? My humble understanding is that it does not allow this book quran to be used as a book of Moses.  
 
Moreover, there is a qualifier “Arabic tongue” with this BOOK ALQURAN in 46:12. I can look at it from two angles. If this qualifier refers to the language in which Quran is written, then the “book of Moses” before this was not in the same language. If it is assumed that the qualifier “Arabic tongue” refers to the distinctive and clarifying features of the Book, then one may reasonably conclude that the “Book of Moses” BEFORE THIS lacked this quality or feature? Which one could be used here and why?  
 
7. Here is the translation of 2:89 by Dr. QZ: اور جب قدرت نے انکو ایک ایسی کتاب عطا کی جو ان احکامات کی بھی تصدیق کرتی ہے جو ان کے پاس تھے. This means this book, ALquran confirms what “Ahkamaats” they have, not what book they have.  
 
In line of the above, it is my humble understanding that the only way various sets of ayats referring to ALKITAB, Kitab, and KUTUBS, etc. could be reconciled is to allow the term ALKITAB=ORDERS=COMMANDMENTS=AHKAMMAATS. Thus ALKITAB is a terminology referring to the ORDERS, the Commandments, the DOS AND DONtS, or Ahkamaats of Allah? For this understanding to hold ground, it must make sense in various places where the terminology ALKITAB is used. Please insert this understanding in those places, and see for yourselves how it translates. I am however open to any critique on my understanding and to the guidance from other brothers and sisters. Please do so with all the logic and reasoning at your command, and not with other question(s).  
 
I would also humbly request my Brothers and Sisters who are well versed and knowledgeable in Quran, please share your understanding with us in a rather exhaustive way. What you are doing is a scholarly work. Scholarship demands that you provide well-reasoned, well-articulated, relevant, and to the point understanding of the topic under discussion, with special attention being paid to others points of views/questions/concerns that are invariant with your understanding, even if these views are not completely sustainable. Simply saying read this and that and you will get it, or answering with a counter question cannot make you get it. Repeating a general principle time and again and/or the same reasoning without change does not make the principle clearer anymore nor it makes a better argument. And the reason is simple. If one wants to test something, one needs a properly calibrated instrument; one needs to know how to use it; one needs to know what are the underlying assumptions, if any, etc. All of this is with you who know the subject, meaning you know how you have translated verses and why; you know the assumptions under which you imported one meaning from one place to another. We, the learners don’t know all this. Therefore, the instrument that we would use to understand something would not give us the same results that you got. Thus, at best our understanding would remain invariant to that of yours. This is perhaps not your goal. Thank you.  

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 24 June 2011Report Abuse
I will reply to your novel, sorry, i mean reply :-D Later. Meanwhile, can you try to ponder on this  
 
If you, Dawood, work as an doctor for two years, then as a lawyer, and after 10 years, as an engineer....  
 
WHAT are you when you practice as a doctor, lawyer and engineer?  
 
You are still Dawood, but you are perfoming different tasks,,,,  
 
do you find it difficult to understand WHY you are called a DOCTOR when you work as a doctor, even though your a lawyer and an engineer too?  
 
If i tell people not to doub in Dawood, and his QUALITIES, and even though he work as an engineer today, his skills as lawyer and doctor are still confirmed and , would you still be confused?  
 
"So basically the Book has always been the same . It was named or given a name by the prophet or its followers according to the usage of the BOOK or الکتاب .as explained by Moazzam" Dr Uncle  
 

Comments by: Mubashir Syed On 24 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Dawood, I think I can understand the situation. Trust me you are far better than me in understanding something and Arabic as well.  
 
Problem is neither with understanding nor language, messengers will come to you who speak in your language ( as per Quran if am not wrong ) so being tough at naïve level with Arabic language it should not hinder understanding message WHICH IS VERY SIMPLE ( Again as per Quran if am not wrong.)  
 
Is rationality limited to fixed laws of nature ,salath as namaz, saum as roza and deying hadith?? And become a MULLAH of higher level with high level myths still intact?  
 
Issue is with either preconceived ideas and Yellow cow’s which we don’t wanna sacrifice/hidden and try to relate to Quran when they are not, like LAD, Science, Trying to prove GOD (The prove given by modern people is not actually new it is available since B.C) and things which cannot be comprehended.  
 
Another issue could be if we try to avoid something just to be with masses for some material gain then it becomes tough to understand.  
 
For how book was authored ? I think it was authored as any other book is authored by an Individual/Institute. ( No myths please )  
 
 
Note : Please don’t include yourself in WE if even you think like brother Bilal thought that it might be tough for me and easy for you.  
 
With no intension to offend or defend, please feel free to disagree (after a thought)……….  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.

Comments by: aurangzaib On 25 June 2011Report Abuse
Your Majesty, Badshah Salamat,  
 
I note your post of 22 June addressed to me.  
 
It shows that you are in open personal confrontation, rather than discussing theories intellectually. I beg your pardon, I can hardly go along with your wisdom. I am, the poor guy, still entangled in your earlier pearls of wisdom and keep chanting them with regular interval:-  
 
 
“…..situations and events are people….???? ….situations and events can be categorized as things…..??? ……the situations and events themselves are the generic templates…..????” W—h—a—t ?  
 
May God, the Creator have mercy upon me.  
As usual, your present post is also full of such pearls of wisdom whose precious weight I can’t withstand. Although I should have scrutinized them and collected the glittering pieces for presenting before public, BUT, that might keep me busy chanting them praying for a little bit of comprehension.  
 
“I think”, your brilliance is being blotted out by the menace of an apparently inherent prejudice. Let us not discuss this topic further in order to keep up pretences for the sake of sanctity of Aastana pages.  
 
I beg Your Majesty, don’t again call “I think” as a ‘crime against humanity’ committed by this sinner. Your Grace have herself opted in favor of this term many times in the recent past. I won’t go to the extent of copy/pasting all of it.  

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 25 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaamun Alaikum,  
 
What is wrong with you people?!  
 
i'll tell you what's wrong. Your egos are wayyyy out of control!  
 
This is your conditon, because you people are not truly Quran only and alone.  
 
I hope you people get it together, because Allah is certainly taking note...if that really means anything to you.  
 
Dhulqarnain-

Comments by: Nargis-Badshah-Salamat On 25 June 2011Report Abuse
Nothing is wrong,Not even Mr Wong is Wrong because he is chinese hahaha.  
 
Youre right, Sorry to everyone for being harsh and bad and sarcastic and stressed and un-nice and un-kind. But i must say i should be excused this time and one more month because i have loads of things to do so it can happend that i lose my control and get bad again.  
 
So you just have to live with that for few more weeks, heyy at least i didnt swear, i swear :-D

Comments by: Maniza On 25 June 2011
Dear Dhulqurnain and ALL Aastana readers or members.  
 
I truely appoligise for any hurt I may have caused towards anyone. This forum has had an air of malicious behaviour from Myself and other members.  
 
The reason for deleting Mujeebs post was the offensive and threatning language used towards an certain ex-member.  
 
The reason for deleting pervaiz post was on the request of another executive member. Expressed the need to block or deltete such posts which had undue praise for one ex-member thus according to him, it vied one member against another.  
 
Again I am sorry to All for any bad behaviour on my part, even if you feel it in this post.

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 26 June 2011Report Abuse
Salaamun Alaikum, Maniza,  
 
Are you a bad bad girl, too, like...Crazy Gurl Narge Badshah Salamat, The Spa Queen from Hell? ;D  
 
You don't owe me or anyone an apology, Sweety.  
 
The occasion sharp retort is just human, but when a member start threatening other members, well, it's time for that individual to go. You did your job. All praises due to Allah.  
 
Dhulqarnain-

Comments by: moazzam On 26 June 2011
Sister Maniza! Class room mai aik monitor hona zaroori hai.

Comments by: Nargis On 26 June 2011Report Abuse
AoA dear members especially brother Mozzam  
this forum is meant for the open discussion about the understanding of different issues addressed by AL-Quran.Every body has the right to express his views/understandings/inferences of the different Quranic issues/topics/contents.but no body has the right to impose his understang on the other members.if someone has some different opinion regarding a prticular topic he should provide logic and supportive references only from Quran with clearcut sense of the verses within the arabic gramatic principles and lexicon, not the personal inferences.  
 
brother Moazzam has always made available the QURANIC refences in support of his undrestandings and the actual sense of the verses,he always provided the words used by the Quran and their meanings according to lexicon and sense of the verses within the gramatic principles,if some body wants to differ just put your understanding of the Quranic verses and the words according to lexicon and within gramatic principles.No personal arguments/comments/thoughts could be considered as conclusive. Dr SHahid  
 
PERFECT, COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER. THANK YOU  
 
&  
 
THANK YOU WILLIAM.

Comments by: William On 27 June 2011Report Abuse
May I also take this time, to congratulate and thank Dr Qamar Zaman, the Executive members, and those working behind the scenes, for helping me to gain a better understanding of the Quran!  
 
Aastana is still “an excellent place for learning and getting to know the true concepts as enunciated in Quran” and is gaining a reputation for being a platform of academic excellence.  

Comments by: Nargis On 27 June 2011Report Abuse
And from now on, those who are sincere and want to learn for real, or want to share their understanding, lets help each other to ignore irrelevant posts so we cant discuss the Quran and not "people".  
 
Ill try not to respond to irrelevant posts or let it affect me ,although its really hard.  

Comments by: moazzam On 28 June 2011
Dear aastanaMembers! THE GREAT PEOPLE USUALLY DO GREAT JOB ,PEOPLE EXPECTS GREAT TOLLERANCE AS WELL.

Comments by: Mubashir On 28 June 2011Report Abuse
Wow!  
 
Falsafi ko behess may Khuda milta Nahi  
Dor Suljharaha hai par sira milta nahi!!  
 
To rely on aqal to make the Qur'an is easier said than done!! Good thing Allama Parwez stopped where hd did!

Comments by: Mubashir Syed On 28 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear Mubashir, good couplet...................  
 
Agar dor suljha te huwe koi khuda dhoond ne nikal jaye tou sira saari zindagi na mile ga.  
 
There is difference between being in stable boat with known fears and a bigger boat which is yet to discover its possible fears, again after fears are discovered bigger boat will have more room to accomodate FACTS.  
 
I think you cant compare final stable stage of Allama pervez with intial advance research of aastana. If we really want to compare lets compare intial phases of Allama pervez and and initial phase of aastana......  
 
Note : If am not wrong, Allama pervez was inline and working along with people in power (Politically) of those days so it might have been a bit easy for him.  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.

Comments by: Nargis On 29 June 2011Report Abuse
 
 
Not only Aqal, but the tasref and Rattal, the context and ayas fulfilling the purpose of the Quran being in harmony with the core of the Quran, is the main thing and helping the readers Aqal to progress further. And from Allama Pervez’s books, it’s obvious that he used his Aqal and encouraged others to do the same, otherwise he would say his words are final. He even used his Aqal to explain the no-aqal-using mullahs’ stupid books in the interview called "Giant vs. Mullah" on YouTube.  
 
If he stopped anywhere, or if he stopped at all, he would never say his word is not final and encourage others to continue the understanding of the Quran.  
 
That’s not to stop, that's to initiate a continuous walk through different generations, even when you’re not physically here...... and even if you won’t have the same views and understanding like the next generations...  
 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," Evelyn Beatrice Hall  
 
This baton is carried on by brave and fearless newer generations like Dr Uncle and brother Moazzam ... when they physically die, others like them will take over, and for that they need not only AQAL, but also the ability to take advantage of .. And play on it entirely  
 
Only the one who is free from myths, will taste the freedom of utilizing the Aqal,  
 
Intoxication of myths and mythology destroys the ability of senses, while the intoxication of AQAL advances the senses and upgrades all of the humanity. The more we use our brain, the more it advances
 

Comments by: naeem sheikh On 29 June 2011Report Abuse
Sister Nargis: LAGTA HAI AAP MAI AKAL HAI. Help Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp Help  
PLEASE USE UR AKAL AND MAKE ME UNDERSTAND THE "yajooj majooj" STORY EXPLAIND BY Brother moazzam in a amaizing way. meri samajh mai kuch nahi ata kash koi mujh ko samjhata???????????????

Comments by: Mubashir On 29 June 2011Report Abuse
Dear All,  
 
I wanted to deal with an impression that I am left with, after going through different discussions and publications. Through the use of Aql/tasreef/context/lughtat, different discoveries are being made: Prayer is not part of Salaat the system although it has been in an unbroken practice since 1400 years (salat of Jews can be seen on Youtube and it resembles Muslim prayer complete with bowing down and prostation and can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg);  
 
To wash before praying is means something else; Saum has nothing to do with fasting; Khatam Nabiyyeen does not mean the last Nabi; Zina and fuwahishaaw have nothing to do with adultery and shameful acts;  
 
Some ask, what change prayers and fasting are bringing about in Muslims. To which some reply that these only ways to improve ourselves but nowhere it says in the Qur'an that they are the complete cure. Does it help some Muslims to behave, Sure! Do they help all Muslims to behave? No! and nowhere in the Qur'an it says they will magically help ALL Muslims to prevent misbehaviour and to help learn self restraint.  
 
Has aastana not opened itself up to a fierce assault by traditionalist accusing it of not only coming up with new meanings of words, but not agreeing over many core concepts either!! Either that or dismiss it as a bunch of quaks!!  
 
That is why I said that Allama Perwez stopped where he did although they all declared him a Kaafir. Not that it is a measure of success, but Fiqr e Perwez did not seem to appeal to more a very limited number.  
 
The question we need to explore is are we all any closer to understanding the Qur'an or in drifting into further confusion?? To top it off, all this over a Book that says it is easy to understand!!

Comments by: Nargis On 29 June 2011Report Abuse
To wash before praying is means something else; Saum has nothing to do with fasting; Khatam Nabiyyeen does not mean the last Nabi; Zina and fuwahishaaw have nothing to do with adultery and shameful acts;  
 
Yes, that true, Saum is not bloody fasting and starving, Khatam al nabijeen is not last nabi, and Zina Fawshah have nothing to do with adultery and other acts related to sex. Before you DO anything, you need a thought and intention that LEADS you to DO the certain act, and the Quran are here to reform minds, intentions, thoughts, because they initiate the “acts”, and as long as your thoughts and intentions are not changed, your acts won’t change. Why punish someone PHYSICALLY for adultery when it’s just a result of your thoughts (psychology)? If beating would change the thoughts and create “decency”, we could beat the crap out of prisoners and make them the perfect Muslims.  
Quran came to lead people out from darkness (not bed). When lead out to the light, one can lead oneself out from every handcuff and fetter, even if it is the kitchen or bed. Quran is not a cook book or diet book, or a book of science or sex; it’s a book of justices, honesties, corrects, civil liberties, constitutional and civil rights –get that right and mold yourself in whatever way you want, improve it or leave it, but the guidance is there to help you out.
 
 
Some ask, what change prayers and fasting are bringing about in Muslims. To which some reply that these only ways to improve ourselves but nowhere it says in the Qur'an that they are the complete cure. Does it help some Muslims to behave, Sure! Do they help all Muslims to behave? No! and nowhere in the Qur'an it says they will magically help ALL Muslims to prevent misbehaviour and to help learn self restraint.  
 
that’s not our problem, whether it help SOME Muslims to behave or not, we are interested in what the Quran say. The end, case closed, ikhtitam, period. That’s our aim at Aastana, to find out What the Quran say. We don’t want to say this must be in the Quran because at least some people do behave as a result of the prayer thingy.  
 
And people in the west do know how to behave and that without praying. It safer to sleep half naked in the park among western men than walking through our “praying Muslim” Iraqi, Afghani and Kurd somalian neighborhood fully dressed.
 
 
Has Aastana not opened itself up to a fierce assault by traditionalist accusing it of not only coming up with new meanings of words, but not agreeing over many core concepts either!! Either that or dismiss it as a bunch of quaks!!  
 
Maybe, but don’t worry, we will still work hard to find the real meaning in the Quran through its own teachings.  
 
That is why I said that Allama Perwez stopped where he did although they all declared him a Kaafir. Not that it is a measure of success, but Fiqr e Perwez did not seem to appeal to more a very limited number.  
 
It depends on what you count as a number, we count every generation to come….  
 
The question we need to explore is we all any closer to understanding the Qur'an or in drifting into further confusion?? To top it off, all this over a Book that says it is easy to understand!!  
 
we who are studying it and looking at it independently of history, traditionalists, science etc, are NOT confused. but we used to be, thats why had all the questions,,why starve, why pray, why different names on same acts in different religions,why why why- But now,to us the matter is clear, and the book is indeed easy to understand, but not for those who are looking in it and studying it through pre conceived ideas or want to confirm their established ideas through the Quran.  

Comments by: Mubashir On 30 June 2011Report Abuse
Thanks for your comments Nargis. I think to get a grasp over just once concept (Salat) perhaps we need to read it's definition by Allama Perwez here as a refresher:  
 
110. Salat - (sad-lam-wao, sad-lam-ya)  
 
This word has occurred in the Quran 108 times in various forms and as salat 67 times. Salat is the principle and one of the most important elements of Islam, and has special significance. Also in view of its extensive and repeated use in the Quran, it is necessary to discuss it somewhat in detail with reference to various verses. First its literal meaning:  
 
As-sala is the central portion of the backside, the portion where the tail of the animal is. Both sides are called salwan and its plural is salawatun (Taj).  
 
Mosalli is the horse which comes at second place in a race, and is so close to the first-placed that its ears are touching the other’s back portion (the first one is called sabiq.) It, therefore, means to follow the first one very closely. There is a saying of Ali the fourth caliph, “Sabaqa Rasool-Allah, wa salla Abu-Bakr wa sallasa Omar wa khabatatna fitnatun.” Rasool-Allah went away first, followed by Abu-Bakr and then Omar and thereafter chaos overtook us (Taj). According to Taj, salea wastala means attachment, to remain stuck. From this reference Raghib says that verse (74/43), “We were not musalleen,” means that they did not follow the rusul. Accordingly Qurtabi also writes that salat would mean to remain within the bounds of the laws of Allah, and tasleah means to walk behind a person so closely that there remains no distance; not to surpass him but remain closely behind. It is very important to understand the relationship of man and Allah. Allah is the One Who is supreme, most perfect and most beautiful. He has various attributes called Asma-ul-Husna and each attribute is perfect and complete. Allah has also given a personality to man and referred to it as roohona - the divine energy (see rooh). The object or the purpose of man’s life is to develop his personality according to the laws of Allah and inculcate in himself as much of Allah’s attributes as may be humanly possible. In the first Surah (Al-F'atiha) of the Quran, a momin is taught to ask of Allah to guide him to Sirat-al-Mustaqeem (and that, in fact, should be a momin’s purpose in life - to tread the Sirat-al-Mustaqeem all along - the straight and the balanced path), and in the eleventh Surah (Hud) it is stated that Allah continuously stays at Sirat-al-Mustaqeem. It transpires from the above that the only straight path a momin is required to adopt during the course of his life, is the same on which Allah Almighty Himself is while running this universe. This path can easily be adopted by closely and steadfastly following the dictates of Allah’s book, i.e., the Holy Quran. Hence the basic meaning of salat is complete concordance with the book of Allah and thereby incorporating in one’s own self Allah’s most balanced attributes, of course, as far as is humanly possible.  
 
In verse (24/41) a question is asked: “Have you not pondered over the fact that whatever there is in the universe including the birds with wings spread out, is continuously carrying out its assignments with the fullest play of its capabilities and each one of them knows its sphere of duties (tasbeeh) and the way those are to be carried out (salat).” This obviously means that everything in the universe knows by instinct, what are its duties and how to perform them and what is its destiny. As far as the animal world is concerned, they do it by instinct. But if a human being wants to know, what is his tasbeeh and salat, it is a must for him to have faith in wahi, through which all these directions containing do’s and don’ts are explained. This is Iqamat-as-Salat, a special term used in the Quran.  
 
To follow the laws of the Quran is Iqamat-as-Salat. This is not possible individually and can only be done collectively; that is why the Quran has used the plural tense for this. It is the responsibility of an Islamic state to establish this order (22/41), and they do it by mutual consultations (42/38). This system covers all the aspects of life, particularly the economic system. Verse (11/87) is very significant in this regard. It says: “O Shuaib! does your salat not permit us even to spend our wealth as we desire?” They did not understand as to what type of salat gave directions even in economic matters; they thought salat was just a prayer or some sort of ritual.  
 
In a nutshell it would pose one simple question. Would a person like todecide his affairs according to his desires and wishes, or would he surrender before the laws of Allah? This later position is called salat. Verse (19/59) further clarifies: “They were followed by people who abandoned or negated the salat.” Therefore, following the divine laws is called salat. As such Ibn-e-Qutaiba says, salat actually means ad-deen and Iqamat-as-Salat means Iqamat-ud-Deen.  
 
As-salla means fire and firewood. Salla asaho-alan-nar means he straightened and softened his stick by heating it in fire. As such salat would also mean to remove one’s defects. The author of Al-Minar says that salat, in fact, is the recognition that one’s personality needs guidance of a superior authority. In this way Qurtabi says that salat means obedience to Allah.  
 
Another meaning of salat is to subdue and arrest and attract someone’s attention (Moheet). This view would explain another meaning of salat which is taming and harnessing the forces operative in the universe.  
 
One meaning of salat is reverence and respect (Taj), i.e., to work for and to establish a socio-economic system that proves the greatness of the Sustainer of this universe.  
 
In Hebrew dictionary salawat (plural of salat) is the praying place of Jews. In verse (22/40) this word is used in that context.  
 
Salat has also been used for a particular ritual. On the whole, whatever a momin is doing by following the laws of Allah, without any restrictions of time or formation, is salat. But wherever in the Quran it refers to a particular action, its form and timing has to be fixed. In this regard there are various verses in the Quran, e.g., Verse (5/6) mentions ablution, which is to be performed before offering salat. Verse (4/43) prohibits the momineen from performing salat when they are under the influence of intoxicants (the momineen are, however, admonished to refrain from the use of intoxicants 5/90-91).  
 
In Surah Al-Jumaa (62/9-10) it is commanded: “When you are called for the congregation on the day of Juma, you should rush towards zikr-Allah, putting aside your business - and after salat spread out in the land in search of the bounty of Allah and do His zikr a great deal, so that you may prosper.”  
 
Some specific timings are also mentioned in the Quran. Verse (17/78) directs the momineen to establish salat from early morning till late night. In this verse the word dalook has been used which means from morning till evening, thereby denying the earlier superstition that certain times of the day are good or bad. It is further explained in verse (11/114) that salat should be established at the two ends of the day and the early hours of the night. Verses (20/130) and (50/39) mention about hamd before sunrise and sunset and also late at night when the stars start fading (52/49).  
 
Verse (24/58) mentions about Salat-ul-Fajr and Salat-ul-Ishaa when domestic servants are forbidden to enter private apartments without permission. About recitation during salat, the Quran says that you should understand as to what you are reciting (4/43) and do not recite loudly or in silence but adopt a course in between. The above verses explain that the meaning of salat encompasses congregational prayers as well. Wherever Aqeem-us-Salat is referred to, it means the establishment of the whole system, the obedience to the laws of Allah, and the observance of all the duties expected of a momin. At other places, it also refers to the offering of prayers as well as other duties which are a part of the whole system. For this distinction one has to see the whole verse and the context in which it is brought. Similarly the word musalleen refers to those persons who are at the height of dignity (70/22-35).  
 

Comments by: naeem sheikh On 01 July 2011Report Abuse
AGAR SHAKHSIYAT PER HE JANA HAI TO PHIR G A PERVEZ KEY BJOY WHY NOT MAULANA MODODI??????

Comments by: Nargis On 01 July 2011Report Abuse
 
The above verses explain that the meaning of salat encompasses congregational prayers as well. Wherever Aqeem-us-Salat is referred to, it means the establishment of the whole system, the obedience to the laws of Allah, and the observance of all the duties expected of a momin. At other places, it also refers to the offering of prayers as well as other duties which are a part of the whole system. For this distinction one has to see the whole verse and the context in which it is brought. Similarly the word musalleen refers to those persons who are at the height of dignity (70/22-35). By Mubashir  
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::  
 
So i wonder what part of the divine system is "followed" with the prayer ? If the prayer is a PART of other DUTIES expected of a momin, then its method should be in the book aswell?  

Comments by: Mubashir On 04 July 2011Report Abuse
The Divine System of do's and don'ts spelled out throughout the pages of the Qur'an that includes personal, soccial, economic, values.

Comments by: Mubashir On 04 July 2011Report Abuse
Dear Naeem:  
 
Maudoodi and Perwez are like chalk and cheese. One is pro hadees and reads ahadees into interpretting Qur'an. The other bases his approach by interpretting the Qur'an by the Qur'an and intricasies of the Arabic language. Perwez does not reject ahadees but judges them in the light of Qur'an. To read Perwez's exposition, visit www.tolueislam.com.  
 
Cheers!!

Comments by: Junaid On 04 July 2011Report Abuse
Dear Mubashir;  
Thank you for sharing the link for tulueislam. Allama Perwez was a good scholar and no one has any doubt about it. However I must say that Quranic research is a continuous process and there is no full stop in it. Allama Perwez passed away in 1984 but there are many scholars who continued their research in order to explore things which were left unexplained due to various reasons. In short we can say that our world didn't end in 1984, rather we entered into 21st century with up-to-date understanding, learning new concepts and exploring new meanings.  
 
As a matter of fact, Allama Perwez never claimed himself as an authority over Quran and throughout his lifetime he encouraged his students to use their own intellect to understand everything, instead of following him blindly. He was well aware of the fact that Quran clearly negates following personalities or accepting human authorities.  
 
I am assuming that you came here to share your point of view and not that of Allama Perwez. If that is not the case and you came here to share Allama Perwez's inference, then why anyone should listen or read your post and why not we go directly to TolueIslam and read what Allama Perwez said.
 
 
Anyway, I would not go into further complexities rather I'll try to keep my comments short and to the point.  
 
According to your statement, ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ also means prayer in form of ritual. I would like to know where the method regarding offering this ritual has been mentioned in Quran?  
In fact I have tried my level best to locate a single verse giving the method of ritual prayer but unfortunately I couldn't find anything.  
Apparently, there are various methods of offering ritual prayers and each sect follows it's own method. Some of these sects even differ in terms of timings of ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ for example Shia offer 5 prayers but they combine two prayers and go to mosques thrice a day. Sunnis on the other hand visit offers 5 prayers at 5 different timings. Also to mention that there are few sects who believe that there are 3 prayers to be offered and not 5.
 
 
What I need to know is that which of these sects is following Quran? Which of these sects is offering ritual prayer according to Quran and how?  
 
Also I would like to know how and from where did you learn the method of your prayer when there is no method given in Quran? Who taught you the method of offering prayer?
 
 
Finally I would request you to kindly differentiate between types of ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ in the following verses;  
 
ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱلْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَٰهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (2:03  
What type of ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ is this verse talking about? Ritual Prayer or a socio-economic system?  
 
وَأَقِيمُو۟ا ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُو۟ا ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَٱرْكَعُو۟ا مَعَ ٱلرَكِعِينَ (2:43  
what type of ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ has been mentioned in this verse? Prayer or the system?  
Also I would like to know that when أَقِيمُو۟ا ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ has been mentioned clearly in the verse then why وَٱرْكَعُو۟ا مَعَ ٱلرَكِعِينَ is mentioned separately? Provided that رْكَعُو۟ is already a part of ritual prayer.
 
 
Kindly provide a clear answer, according to your own understanding and not that of Allama Perwez because if someone wants to read what Allama Perwez says, then he/she can easily refer to his website.  
 
NOTE: The following comments from you seems a bit unclear;  
 
The Divine System of do's and don'ts spelled out throughout the pages of the Qur'an that includes personal, soccial, economic, values.  
 
Kindly elaborate what do you actually mean to say!

Comments by: Nargis On 04 July 2011Report Abuse
The Divine System of do's and don'ts spelled out throughout the pages of the Qur'an that includes personal, soccial, economic, values. Mubashir  
 
Dear brother, please show me where a method of prayer is spelled out under "DO's”? If prayer is mandatory and part of the system as suggested by you, then its method must be given by the author of the Quran too?  
 
You said: - Perwez does not reject ahadees but judges them in the light of Qur'an.  
 
I really like Allama Parwez, but i have to say, no matter how many hadith can be judged under the Quran, they will NEVER, NEVER be part of Deen designed in the Quran.  
 
And  
 
They can never be proven to be true, even if they are a "look- alike" copy of the Quraniq ayas.
 
 
You said:- The other bases his approach by interpretting the Qur'an by the Qur'an and intricasies of the Arabic language  
 
, very nice, but then there is NO need to judge hadith under the Quran, because: - "interpreting the Quran by the Quran".....  
 
Naeem Sheiks question is important, if everything Allama Parwez said is condidered to be right just because he said it, and his work is not Double-checked/ Reexamined, then we follow him blindly. so if we are to blindly follow or agree with everything our favourite Alim or Allama said, then we can close our eyes and follow anyone, ...
 

Comments by: Iqbal kay shaheen On 05 July 2011Report Abuse
Salaam to Aastana Family.  
 
Specially to brother Junaid Malik Sahib, been absent then came back with the Force and having an status of an Executive.  
 
Congratulations :).  
 
What i am unable to grasp is why are we going back to old issues? of Zina, Salat, Zaka etc. When everything has already been clarified in Dr. Qamar books, why not guide these new comers to that.  
 
As for Salat For me and it is just my own understanding. Salat simply means ACCOUNTABILITY, from dusk to dawn what did you do with your time, money, effort's, How did you benefited others less privilege from you.  
 
And Establish "the system of accountability"(Al-Salat) and growth (Al-Zakat).  
 
and Junaid wrote: However I must say that Quranic research is a continuous process and there is no full stop in it.  
 
If this is the case then are you telling me that our lives will end and on different stages of it we will follow current understandings, and when new discoveries are made we have to change ourselves accordingly, Then how are we suppose to be Muslim, Momin etc and live life accordingly If every now and then there is going to be changes.  
 
Researchers with a variety of academic and theological interests are proposing controversial theories about the Quran and Islamic history, and are striving to reinterpret Islam for the modern world. This is, as one scholar puts it, a "sensitive business".  
 
Yes it's a BUSINESS.  

Comments by: Junaid2 On 05 July 2011Report Abuse
Salaam Brother Iqbal kay Shaheen;  
 
I would like to clarify one thing here, that I am not an executive member :)  
I believe in equality among mankind, therefore these statuses mean nothing to me. Even if someone offers me the "executive" status, I'll decline it straight away. To me, any thing which creates distinction or discrimination is unacceptable. Perhaps that's why I changed the color to green on my own :D
 
 
Why we are discussing Salaat again?  
Actually this discussion was initiated by a new member named "Mubashir". Frankly speaking, even I am unable to understand why people are beating around the same bush again and again, instead of going through the books which are easily accessible for everyone. Everyone knows the stance of aastana on SALAAT, ZINA, ZAKAAT, SAUM etc. but if someone still comes in and tries to force his views (rather another scholar's views) then we cannot stop him from doing that, since aastana believe in freedom of expression. All we can do is to debate, and that's it.  
 
You said;
 
If this is the case then are you telling me that our lives will end and on different stages of it we will follow current understandings, and when new discoveries are made we have to change ourselves accordingly, Then how are we suppose to be Muslim, Momin etc and live life accordingly If every now and then there is going to be changes.  
 
In reply to your comments, I would like to quote your own interpretation  
 
And Establish "the system of accountability"(Al-Salat) and growth (Al-Zakat).  
 
Please allow me to make a very slight change in your interpretation;  
 
And establish a system of justice, equality and accountability ( Aqeem-u-Al-Salaat) and make it grow and develop ( Wa-aata-u-Al-Zakaat)  
 
See?  
There always is room for further growth towards perfection, even after the system of Al-Salaat has been implemented. We have been instructed to grow and develop it near to perfection, and this is a continuous process.  
As human beings, we are prone to mistakes. We normally use trial and error methods to implement our legislation's or constitutions and then we try to improve things by learning from our mistakes. This is a very lengthy process and normally it takes centuries for a nation to grow and develop.  
We are lucky to have Quran which could be considered as a short cut provided to us. It contains instructions and guidance which can save a lot of our efforts by preventing us from committing mistakes.  
 
According to what I have understood so far, we attain the status of Muslim when we show willingness to understand and implement Al-Salaat according to Quranic instructions. Later on we attain the status of Momin when we comprehend, and strive to implement it. There always is room for further improvement, while we struggle to implement this system and even after they system gets implemented.  
 
Controversies will always be there in almost every era, just like good and bad people will always be there. Those who don;t want justice, equality and accountability to be implemented, will always try to make things complicated, so that they could keep the masses in a state of ignorance. What we need to understand is, that we should keep our goal simple. The only thing we need is, to keep the concept of Al-Salaat in our minds and keep on striving until we die or the system gets implemented (whichever comes first).

Comments by: Adnan Muhammad Khan On 05 July 2011
Also I would like to know that when أَقِيمُو۟ا ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ has been mentioned clearly in the verse then why وَٱرْكَعُو۟ا مَعَ ٱلرَكِعِينَ is mentioned separately? Provided that رْكَعُو۟ is already a part of ritual prayer.  
I DO APPRECIATE THE MIND BEHIND SUCH OBSERVATION.. WELL DONE JUNAID!  
 

Comments by: Mubashir On 06 July 2011Report Abuse
Dear Nargis  
 
You asked where prayer is detailed in the Qu'ran. If you read chapter 2 it tells you to take your salah from Maqaam e Ibrahim. In other words, perform it as it is being performed over there. Besides, salaat was not introduced 1400 years ago! It was practiced during the life of earlier prophets and by their followers. I posted a Youtube link earlier to show how the Jews pray and it is not much different than ours. I am not saying my study is final, but I must keep an open mind. This prayer on prescribed timings is being done for 1400 years ago as an unbroken practice.  
 
As for Perwez, his word is not final but as things are progessing here, it shows that:  
 
Dard barhta gaya joon joon dawa ki (Running after root words and basing our understanding purely on liguistic alone does not seem to be clearing things up)!!  
 
Cheers!

Comments by: Yellow-cow On 06 July 2011Report Abuse
oh may God, you say Maqam e Ibrahim is place of prayer? Why not any method given in the Quran, and why jewish prayer method is followed? You have any proof if jewish people pray like prophets? What proof you have? This said by Junaid, and you did not answar, why? 2:03  
What type of ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ is this verse talking about? Ritual Prayer or a socio-economic system?  
 
وَأَقِيمُو۟ا ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُو۟ا ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَٱرْكَعُو۟ا مَعَ ٱلرَكِعِينَ (2:43  
what type of ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ has been mentioned in this verse? Prayer or the system?  
Also I would like to know that when أَقِيمُو۟ا ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ has been mentioned clearly in the verse then why وَٱرْكَعُو۟ا مَعَ ٱلرَكِعِينَ is mentioned separately? Provided that رْكَعُو۟ is already a part of ritual prayer.

Comments by: Mubashir On 06 July 2011Report Abuse
Why should Qur'an detail a practice that is a living one and has been continuing from Ibrahim? Why not continue it?  
As for 2:03 it applied to establshing a system whereby Allah's laws are followed and salat the prayer is part of it.  
 
2:43 And help establish the Divinely guided System in the society, and help set up the equitable Economic Order. And bow to these Commands as others have bowed. Since salat the prayer is a part of salat the system then this also includes bowing down at prescribed timings.  
 
For instance salat the Prayer is commanded at APPOINTED TIME. Quran speaks of 3 timings of prayer viz at both ends of the day and first part of night. 11:114  
 
If Saat only means system only, then what happens in between? We read about Salat Fajr and Salat Esha. Does that mean the system can only be practiced at times? What happens in between. Then we read about washing before prayers, We read about shortening the prayer at the battlefield (or when there is a threat), Call to prayer, not to go near it when the mind is messed up, losing prayers by behaving against what is being recited in it, that it prevents bad behaviour by raising awareness, etc. etc.  
 
We learn prayer through an unbroken chain of practice. It is not something that was invented 1400 years ago. Jewish prayer and washing before prayers is quite similar and as we know Jewish people are descendants of earlier prophets.  
 
I don't claim to have all the answers so please forgive me if I am missing something. I hope to keep an open mind and learn and wish all here would do the same. Salat is emphasised repeatedly in the Qur'an so we must try and grasp it's entire meaning and scope through serious study.  
 
As for do's and don's in the Qur'an the list is big and by no means complete so please excuse me for that:  
 
1. Respect and honor all human beings irrespective of their religion, colour, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on [17/70]  
 
2.Talk straight, to the point, without any ambiguity or deception [33/70]  
 
3. Choose best words to speak and say them in the best possible way [17/53, 2/83]  
 
4.Do not shout. Speak politely keeping your voice low. [31/19]  
 
5.Always speak the truth. Shun words that are deceitful and ostentatious [22/30]  
 
6. Do not confound truth with falsehood [2/42]  
 
7.Say with your mouth what is in your heart [3/167]  
 
8. Speak in a civilized manner in a language that is recognized by the society and is commonly used! [4/5]  
 
9. When you voice an opinion, be just, even if it is against a relative[6/152]  
 
10. Do not be a bragging boaster [31/18]  
 
11. Do not talk, listen or do anything vain [23/3, 28/55]  
 
12. Do not participate in any paltry. If you pass near a futile play, then pass by with dignity [25/72]  
 
13. Do not verge upon any immodesty or lewdness whether surreptitious or overt [6/151].  
 
14. If, unintentionally, any misconduct occurs by you, then correct yourself expeditiously [3/134].  
 
15. Do not be contemptuous or arrogant with people [31/18]  
 
16. Do not walk haughtily or with conceit [17/37, 31/18]  
 
17. Be moderate in thy pace [31/19]  
 
18. Walk with humility and sedateness [25/63]  
 
19. Keep your gazes lowered devoid of any lecherous leers and salacious stares ! [24/30-31, 40/19].  
 
20. If you do not have complete Knowledge about anything, better keep your mouth shut. You might think that speaking about something without full knowledge is a trivial matter. But it might have grave consequences [24/15-16]  
 
21. When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a favourable view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter. Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and truthful evidence [24/12-13]  
 
22. Ascertain the truth of any news, lest you smite someone in ignorance and afterward repent of what you did[49/6]  
 
23. Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17/36].  
 
24. Never think that you have reached the final stage of knowledge and No body! knows more than yourself. Remember! Above everyone endowed with knowledge is another endowed with more knowledge [12/76]. Even the Prophet [p.b.u.h] was asked to keep praying, "O My Sustainer! Advance  
me in knowledge." [20:114]  
 
25. The believers are but a single Brotherhood. Live like members of one family, brothers and sisters unto one another [49/10].  
 
26. Do not make mockery of others or ridicule others [49/11]  
 
27. Do not defame others [49/11]  
 
28. Do not insult others by nicknames [49/11]  
 
29. Avoid suspicion and guesswork. Suspicion and guesswork might  
deplete your communal energy [49/12]  
 
 
30. Spy not upon one another [49/12]  
 
31. Do not backbite one another [49! /12]  
 
32. When you meet each other, offer good wishes and blessings for safety. One who conveys to you a message of safety and security and also when a courteous greeting is offered to you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous or (at least) of equal courtesy [4/86]  
 
33. When you enter your own home or the home of somebody else, compliment the inmates [24/61]  
 
34. Do not enter houses other than your own until you have sought permission; and then greet the inmates and wish them a life of blessing, purity and pleasure [24/27]  
 
35. Treat kindly  
" Your parents  
" Relatives  
" The orphans  
" And those who have been left alone in the society [4/36]  
 
36. Take care of  
" The needy,  
" The disabled  
" Those whose hard earned income is insufficient to meet their needs  
" And those whose businesses have stalled  
" And those who have lost their jobs. [4/36]  
 
37. Treat kindly " Your related neighbours, and unrelated! ed neighbours " Companions by your side in public gatherings, or public transportation. [4/36]  
 
38. Be generous to the needy wayfarer, the homeless son of the street, and the one who reaches you in a destitute condition [4/36]  
 
39. Be nice to people who work under your care. [4/36]  
 
40. Do not follow up what you have given to others to afflict them with reminders of your generosity [2/262].  
 
41. Do not expect a return for your good behaviour, not even thanks [76/9]  
 
 
42. Cooperate with one another in good deeds and do not cooperate with others in evil and bad matters [5/2]  
 
43. Do no try to impress people on account of self-proclaimed virtues [53/32]  
 
44. You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good deeds yourself, then preach [2/44]  
45. Correct yourself and your families first [before trying to correct others] [66/6]  
 
46.Pardon gracefully if anyone among you who commits a bad deed out of ignorance, and then repents and amends[6/54, 3/134]  
 
47. Divert and sublimate your anger and potentially virulent emotions to creative energy, and become a source of tranquillity and comfort to people [3/134]  
 
48. Call people to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful exhortation. Reason with them most decently [16/125]  
 
49. Leave to themselves those who do not give any importance to the Divine code and have adopted and consider it as mere play and amusement [6/70]  
 
50. Sit not in the company of those who ridicule Divine Law unless they engage in some other conversation[4/140]  
 
51. Do not be jealous of those who are blessed [4/54]  
 
52. In your collective life, make rooms for others [58/11]  
 
53. When invited to ! dine, Go at the appointed time. Do not arrive too early to wait for the preparation of meal or linger after eating to engage in bootless babble. Such things may cause inconvenience to the host [33/53]  
 
54.Eat and drink [what is lawful] in moderation [7/31].  
 
55. Do not squander your wealth senselessly [17/26]  
 
56. Fulfil your promises and commitments [17/34]  
 
57.Keep yourself clean, pure [9/108, 4/43, 5/6].  
 
58. Dress-up in agreeable attire and adorn yourself with exquisite  
character from inside out[7/26]  
 
59. Seek your provision only by fair endeavour [29/17, 2/188]  
 
60. Do not devour the wealth and property of others unjustly, nor bribe the officials or the judges to deprive others of their possessions [2/188]  
 
 
 

Comments by: Nargis On 06 July 2011Report Abuse
Why should Qur'an detail a practice that is a living one and has been continuing from Ibrahim? Why not continue it?  
 
Exactly HOW do you know what Ibrahim did , what's your sources if not the Quran? Did The Quran encourage us to follow ANYTHING outside he Quran, if so please refer to the ayahs?  
 
For instance salat the Prayer is commanded at APPOINTED TIME. Quran speaks of 3 timings of prayer viz at both ends of the day and first part of night. 11:114  
 
If Saat only means system only, then what happens in between? We read about Salat Fajr and Salat Esha. Does that mean the system can only be practiced at times? What happens in between. Then we read about washing before prayers, We read about shortening the prayer at the battlefield (or when there is a threat), Call to prayer, not to go near it when the mind is messed up, losing prayers by behaving against what is being recited in it, that it prevents bad behaviour by raising awareness, etc. etc.  
 
Thats what happen when we close our eyes and forget to cross examine our heroes theories and thoughts.  
 
“Fa astaqim kama umirta wa mun taaba ma’aka wa la tatghaw innahu bima ta’maloona baseera. Wa la tarkanu ilal lazina zalamu fa tamassakum annaaru wa ma lakum min doonillaahi min aouliyaa’a thumma la tunsaroon. Wa aqim as Salaata tarfi an-nahaari wa zulfan min al-layil. Inna al-hasanaati yuzhibna as-Sayyi’aati. Zaalika zikra lilzakireen”.  
 
“So, as you are ordered, you and your companions be steadfast upon it and do not cross limis. Surely, He is  
keeping an eye on your conduct; and do not be soft on the cruel ones, lest fire should get hold of you; and that for you, no one is a friend except God and you will not be supported. And establish Salaat during both parts of the day and in the earlier part of night. Definitely, virtuous deeds offset the vices. This is an admonition for those who take care of admonitions”.  
 
note that “tarf" is generally translated as ‘side’ or ‘end’, whereas Quran has itself prescribed its meaning. For  
example, in Verse No.127 of Chapter “aal-Imraan”, TARF means a part. It is said :- …..”so that he may cut a part of disbelievers”. Therefore, according to Verse No.114 of Chapter “Hood”, the establishment of Salaat is expanded to both parts of the day, meaning the whole day. And the same task will be carried on till the first part of night; which means that the process of establishment of Salaat should remain in force and constant from morning  
till night. Now it is to be seen as to what is meant by day and night; whether the mention of day and night is with  
reference to the earthly routine, or the days here mean that period of time when Divine Commandments are revealed; and which is defined as “Dalook ash-Shams” in the Chapter “Bani Israel”. And the night symbolizes the ‘darkness of ignorance’. As submitted above, the beginning and the end of Chapter “Hood” testifies that the topic it is dealing with pertains to dissemination of tenets of divine books through Prophets.  
 
Hence, to derive Namaaz from it looks impertinent. this is just one example for how traditional translators overlook and ignore the message in the Quran.
 
 
We learn prayer through an unbroken chain of practice.  
 
Which is NOT written in the Quran. however, everyone is free to follow whatever book they want to.anything outside the Quran is not interesting for those who study the Quran and want to know what's INSIDE the Quran. What Jews or Christians or Zoroastrians are doing, or what the Hadith is saying, is not our concerns, we are are interested in what's in the Quran. To answer the question of why the method of namaaz is not in the Quran by referring us to Jewish practice is not what we asked for. The question was and still is, WHERE IS THE METHOD GIVEN IN THE QURAN ? The Question is NOT " how do the Jews pray, is it similar to Hadithistiq stories "  
 
I suggest you read "Haqiqate Salaat " by Dr Qamar Zaman--> http://www.aastana.com/books/15_E.PDF every aya about Salaat is discussed in that book, and everyone respect your right to disagree.

Comments by: Nargis On 06 July 2011Report Abuse
You asked where prayer is detailed in the Qu'ran. If you read chapter 2 it tells you to take your salah from Maqaam e Ibrahim. In other words, perform it as it is being performed over there.  
 
Dear Mubashir , "Performed over there", your talking like its a place? Is this place located in the Quran ?And I have to ask again, exactly HOW is it performed "over there", please refer only to the Quran.  
 
Dard barhta gaya joon joon dawa ki (Running after root words and basing our understanding purely on liguistic alone does not seem to be clearing things up)!!  
 
Well, we didn't have much choice, it was either "running" after the root words and purely linguistic understanding, or "running" after personalities and THEIR understanding- After pondering for hours, guess what, it was easy to make a decision in choosing our "Runway " ;)  
 
aur suggestion hai, ke kisi ache, parhe likhe degree wale doctor se, jise bhoot pret blue kapro main Aliens na dikhte ho, dawa le, phir dard to kia, dard dene wala zakhm bhi mitt jaye ga.

Comments by: Mubashir On 07 July 2011Report Abuse
Thanks for your comments Sis! I think since we have started to go around in circles, I wish to drop the subject and pray to the Almighty to guide us all.  
 
I think I have made my point sufficiently (and so have you) so time to move on.  
 
Have a great day!

Comments by: Mubashir On 07 July 2011Report Abuse
Dear Sis Nargis,  
 
The Dar Barhta Gaya joon joon dawaa ki is what I am finding expressed in different messeges all over th Aastana Blog. So, hold your patience and do not go into personal attacks as they only end up in exposing your insecurities. Your comments could easily apply to a situation in which you all seem to be involved.  
 
Cheers!!

Comments by: Nargis2 On 07 July 2011Report Abuse
Personal attacks? :-S  
 
Anyway , it would have been nice if you could comment on Junaids and my post about the word "Tarf" and why rukooh is addressed separately if its already a part of the "prayer" (along with other points)  
 
the dard will increase with our message,we let the Quran talk for itself and not through man made ideas. we are presenting an understanding of the Quran and those who disagree are invited to point out mistakes and share a better understanding. I think all of us have read orthodox translation and tafseers and Allama Parwez , so we want to go from here and further, not from here and reverse.  
 
I hope you answer and comment on Junaid and my post so we can see where our understanding is wrong, and show us the method of prayer from the Quran as well as the ayas where the "place of muqame Ibrahim" is located Can you do that? cheers

Comments by: Nargis2 On 07 July 2011Report Abuse
Dear Brother, feel free to point out mistakes and where we are wrong, feel free to analyse our comments and explanations of words based on Arabic language rules and grammar, tasreef and ratal. It would be highly appreciated if you could come with a better understanding than what we have now, trough the Quran only  
 
I'm not afraid of making mistakes while trying to learn, I'm afraid you wont point it out and I wont learn ....

Comments by: Kaif On 20 March 2015Report Abuse
A few Points Neglected:  
1] Law of conservation of energy says that Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed but can only be transformed into different forms (Not a theory rather a Law of Proven Science). Which concludes that we will not be destroyed or end after death (Maut). We will continue but in what form that's a part of another discussion. So if somebody understands Maut to be no life after death and a non changing law of nature then he had left exceptions in his theory and that's obviously not the law of nature and rather a result of not full contemplation in the Ayahs of Universe with balance.  
2] What is Maut (not of what we usually understand as end)? In Simple terms....In Urdu it is often said that person X had died, the word used for death in Urdu is 'Intakal' which is made from Muntaqil which means to transform, to shift, to change position. Which means Maut is something of transforming the position not end of something. Which is referred here in this verse as "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not" - Quran 2:154.  
3] "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not" - Quran 2:154 - This verse tells us not to say dead to people who are shaheed and they are alive but we don't percieve it. This actually means that for example burning a coal completely that is it's death but it transforms into heat and other energies and dispersed in the environment but it is not lost (Otherwise it would have caused Hawking's paradox). The same solid coal can be retrieved from the dispersed energy but after knowing in what forms it dispersed and in exactly what proportion and balance it dispersed. This is what is E=MC2. And based on this principle we will be collected on the day of judgement.  
4] Quran 2:154 says they are indeed alive but we don't percieve it, that means because of our matter limitations we are not able to percieve the aftermath or the laws after dispersion but they exist you don't know. This is according to law of conservation of energy.  
5] Often Wafat and Maut is understood to be same but Quran differentiates between two. Quran 39:42 "Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die [He takes] during their sleep. Then He keeps those for which He has decreed death and releases the others for a specified term. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought."  
In the actual ayah both words wafat and Maut are used with diffrent meanings. Which clearly clears the concept of maut.  
6] An analogy that Maut is of Qaums is right according to Quran but not the only shade of Maut word used in Quran. Maut is used various meanings like even a living person is called dead as 'You cannot make them understand whose hearts are dead' and in many aspects this words is used in Quran.

»«
OTHER QUESTIONS ON
QURAN FEHMI
AOA sir aap ka andaz/tafheem deegar scholar se kafi mukhtalif hae. Issi tarah har scholar ki tafheem aik dusre se nahen milti, halan keh un ki naik ne-ati pe shak b nahen kia ja sakta. Kia practicaly Quran aik mubham se kitab hae? Question by: Dr. Iqbal On 24/09/2010
 
kindly let me know about the (30 parah) of quran... does it not look like STRANGE??? have the real continued meaning and understanding of Quran been scattered in such way??? Question by: Saad Haider On 08/10/2010
 
May we cause peace for the HUMANITY. Please describe SEHER ( JADOO) according to Qur'an, and what about TELEPATHY AND HYPNOTISM, are these the branches of it ? Question by: hameedkhattak From PAKISTAN (PESHAWER) On 27/12/2010
 
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What is the fundamental subject matter encompassed in the Quran? What is the purpose of the contents of the Quran, why do we need this recommendation? To evolve from homo's to higher levels? why is it beneficial to follow such a criterion? Question by: Nargis2 From TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO (TOMBACCO) On 02/04/2011
 
Dear participants I wonder if there are any special requirements that the addressees of the Qur'an must undergo before they are mentally shaped to understand its content. Question by: bob From UNITED KINGDOM On 08/05/2011
 
Dear All, If there is no predestined happening on earth then my question, Is God knows future events?. Wassalam Question by: Saeed From PAKISTAN (KARACHI(MSAEEDTAJ@GMAIL.COM)) On 14/06/2011
 
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Dear Brother Moazzam and Senior Members Please enlist the orthodox v/s aastana termonologies in order to understand message of Quran. Question by: Saeed From PAKISTAN (KARACHI(MSAEEDTAJ@GMAIL.COM)) On 25/07/2011
 
One hadith lover presented the difference of opinion over salat and salat timings among Qur'an only scholars. Can anybody suggest how best to respond to them? They wonder who to follow if not hadith/sunnah? Question by: Mubashir From CANADA On 26/07/2011
 
Brother Moazzam! Regards. Please enlighten us about MUBAHILAH mentioned in verse 3:61. Is cursing (laanat karna) is allowed in islam. Question by: naeem sheikh From PAKISTAN (ISLAMABAD) On 29/07/2011
 
4:164 Messengers we have told you about, and messengers we never told you about. And GOD spoke to Moses directly. What does it means that GOD spoke to Moses directly. Question by: Saeed From PAKISTAN (KARACHI(MSAEEDTAJ@GMAIL.COM)) On 30/07/2011
 
Dear members In some western countries homosexual marriage is allowed and become legal. Should this allowed by a government base on Quranic principles, if ever exist in future. Question by: Saeed From PAKISTAN (KARACHI(MSAEEDTAJ@GMAIL.COM)) On 07/08/2011
 
Dear Dr.Qamar and members. What are the root letters of word يُوقِنُونَ and تُوقِنُونَ Also why Allah has asked us to beleive on بِالْآخِرَةِ in 2/4? Just beleiving is enough to bring peace? Question by: waseemameer From AUSTRALIA (SYDNEY) On 08/08/2011
 
Dear friends, I do not understand why gender is emphasized in witness stuff, what if the witness is "neuter"? and who is "first" witness and who is "second" witness, how did the Quran define the difference? Can't the same situation happen with men? Question by: Nargis From BARBADOS (KIO BATAO?) On 31/08/2011
 
Please elaborate the meaning of 4:11 Do you think that it is about inheritage? Question by: Dr Shiraz From NORWAY (OSLO) On 31/08/2011
 
4:22 ,Why is marriage withالنِّسَاءِ of آبَاؤُكُمْ called فَاحِشَةً وَمَقْتًا وَسَاء سَبِيلاً Question by: Nargis From BARBADOS (KIO BATAO?) On 24/09/2011
 
Dear Sir, Please explain the meanings of 11/82-83 ,wherein "Azzab-e-Qoum-e-loot " is mentioned.Whether innoscent children & women were also destroyed in Azzab? What means "mmussawatan inda Rabbeka wa ma hiea minazzalimina bebaeed"? (11/83) Question by: M Aslam From PAKISTAN (GOJRA) On 26/09/2011
 
Is there linguistic principle to understand the meaning of word that appearently do not seem to be based upon arabic roots? Thinking of "daraahim" in vers 12:20 even though there are more such words. Thanks. Question by: Dr Shiraz From NORWAY (OSLO) On 30/09/2011
 
Dear sir , Please direct me towards some links , where from I can get meanings of whole Sura No.12 ( Yousf ). Question by: M Aslam From PAKISTAN (GOJRA) On 30/09/2011
 
Dear Sir, It is being said that,"The Quran is a book for human rights"; Please quote any verse from Quran in support of this version. Question by: M Aslam From PAKISTAN (GOJRA) On 22/10/2011
 
Dear Sir, Please elaborate the story described in verse No.27 to 31 of sura Al-Maeda. Question by: M Aslam From PAKISTAN (GOJRA) On 27/10/2011
 
Dear Sir, Please explain meanings of 3/183 , where in it has been mentioned that , "we should not believe in any Messenger unless he shows us a " Qurbani" eaten by fire." Question by: M Aslam From PAKISTAN (GOJRA) On 27/10/2011
 
What sort of things can help us understand the quran? Question by: Mughal1 From UNITED KINGDOM On 02/01/2012
 
salam to all.. quran mai btaya gya hai isko samjhna aasan hai. bt hm dekhte hai ki quran mai majazi meanings zyada liy jate hai. esa ku? aasan tehreer to low I.Q.wale insaan ki samjh mai bhi aajane chahiyen. Question by: sara fatima From INDIA (SAHARANPUR) On 30/10/2012
 
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